Btc! What's Happened?!

[baldilocks]

Lots of people expressing views here but Marks and Spencers ? really......???

[dadof2]

Looking at the video on Pete_Scorpa3 post "Dougie the 5 that was'nt" which follows my previous post. Had I been observing under no stop rules from the cameramans point I would have given a 5. Dougie clearly moved back after running his front wheel into a rock. The stop could clearly be seen without a slomo replay. If I had been stood at the end of the section (say for punch card marking) having only a head on view I may well having give him the benefit of the doubt and not awarded a five.

Cheers

[nigel dabster]

Thats where the observer was (at end of section), no punch cards in the SSDT.

[old trials fanatic]

Looking at the video on Pete_Scorpa3 post "Dougie the 5 that was'nt" which follows my previous post. Had I been observing under no stop rules from the cameramans point I would have given a 5. Dougie clearly moved back after running his front wheel into a rock. The stop could clearly be seen without a slomo replay. If I had been stood at the end of the section (say for punch card marking) having only a head on view I may well having give him the benefit of the doubt and not awarded a five.

Cheers

definately a five but as long as everybody, not just the well known ones, gets marked the same then ok by me.

[big john]

Looking at the video on Pete_Scorpa3 post "Dougie the 5 that was'nt" which follows my previous post. Had I been observing under no stop rules from the cameramans point I would have given a 5. Dougie clearly moved back after running his front wheel into a rock. The stop could clearly be seen without a slomo replay. If I had been stood at the end of the section (say for punch card marking) having only a head on view I may well having give him the benefit of the doubt and not awarded a five.

Cheers

I agree with this statement!

But of course, most would see that as being a five, but given the stated position of the observer - he would have been right to give any benefit of doubt to the rider (consistently of course to everyone who does the same). It is what the observer sees counts, not the crowd as they have absolutely nothing to do with it!

Big John

Edited May 31, 2012 by Big John

[rosey]

If you look at a lot of the Scottish rides in the various bits of footage on the net you can convince yourself there are quite a few stops. I'm all for benefit of the doubt though. The problem with one observer being consistent doesn't cover it if not every rider does the same thing on the same section. Anyway this is the Scottish which isn't a BTC.

Whilst observers are volunteers I don't see much merit in discussing the very fine lines of '5' or not... If they become paid (not just a few quid either) officials that's a different matter, but we know that'll never happen.

Currently the BTC is no-stop and the CoC has to be responsible for laying out sections to suit. If the land doesn't allow this then clearly the venue choice is wrong.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Rosey

[john collins]

There is little to be gained by going back over the same old ground, but neither is there a lot to be gained by people just jumping once more on a bandwagon and trying to give the impression that they have some sort of inside knowledge about every problem this series has ever encountered. Of course there are people posting that have a vast knowledge of the British Championship, both past and present, but equally as I have said before I am not convinced that some of the posts have actually ever been to a round , looked at the facts and figures of past rounds, or even understand how it has all worked.

I realise before I start that this will be long – very long , but I cannot start to cover over 7 pages of posts in just a few lines – sorry, but if I have to take the time to write it all, some may have to take time to read it

Be that as it may , it is probably worth laying a few myths to rest.

There is always a lot of talk about how riders should be consulted, how people on these posts should have views taken seriously and so on. So let us start with a fact

On 26^th Nov 2011, a meeting was called to discuss matters relating to the British Championship in any forthcoming year.

Someone told me they did not know this was on – else they would have been there and expressed their views – strongly. - Rollocks

How was it announced? – well I have just checked and it was announced in October of that year. Notice was sent to Trials Central, TMX and of course ACU Web site and Newsletters

Additionally , all Centres as far as I can establish were also informed, and it is through the Centres that Clubs obviously get informed etc ( I would pose question here of how many posters/experts actually attend clubs?)

All fine and dandy I hear you cry , but what as that got to do with anything. Well quite simply, at least in my view, if you feel passionately about the Championship , but also feel strongly enough to decry everyone who works at it and often hurl insults our way, my message is simple: Given that such a meeting was called and advertised, get off your arses and go along and have your say.

Ah – but what about the riders I have read? Fair point, but, as always ALL Championship riders were invited and indeed I am fairly sure all the Expert riders, and by number of emails it looks as if the entire riders who had registered that year and provided an email address were also invited, certainly in total over 50 riders.

At that point, it is not always established who actual organisers will be for following year, those who apply are all invited as well as potential organisers. Also the Importers are always invited ( more on this later)

So – what was the outcome after all this? A total of 11 people confirmed attendance , in some cases of this 11, there were perhaps 2 from one organiser. I think there were 2 organisers – but others were still considering

There were 4 Importers who confirmed they would attend.

Tim Reynolds also confirmed

NO RIDERS CONFIRMED ATENDANCE AS FAR AS I CAN ESTABLISH

However – Apologies were sent from Michael Brown, Josh & Ian Brain ( IOM – long trip)

AND Ben Wibberley - ( more on this later as in my view it gives him a lot more right to criticise)

Result was that this meeting was cancelled. Certainly it does appear that many who are posting on this site could not be a***d to attend

Next – I wish I had a pint for every time someone inferred “ I would have gone if I had known – or if I had known XYZ was up for discussion etc” - I will waste no more space on this – again my answer is simple – Rollocks

One point that is constantly made is why are riders not asked about any change ? It is a fair point. In actual fact they were , and while I would not claim it to have been an extensive survey etc , the results were about 50/50 for Stop or No –Stop - and as anyone can probably work out , the top few riders especially those chasing World honours were certainly in favour of Stop allowed, and certainly those further down pecking order were for No – Stop.

To be honest such a survey is often as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike. Why ?

Well here is the problem: When you ask riders Do you want Stop or No –Stop for BC, the answer almost always has a qualifying remark ie

Yes - Stop allowed: “ As long as the sections are not too severe , or dangerous or out of my ability range”

OR

Yes - No-Stop : “As long as they are Observed properly and fairly and consistently and as long as venue / sections lend themselves to No-Stop”

This is the crux of the matter – it is always XYZ as long as …… or IF . I am afraid that is life

I would vote for Politician in a funny hat regardless of party – as long as he solved the economic crisis, the NHS, Crime on the streets and cut my income tax etc.

No-One, I repeat No-One can expect 100% from sport run by volunteers .

I stated in last post that no-one actually knew how it would all go, and this fact remains

Since Adam was a boy, there have been good trials and bad trials, and a hell of a lot in between. This will not alter just because we use a particular set of rules. It will always still come down to the guy putting the sticks in the ground – end of. However there was certainly an opinion over may years that the gap between the top few riders and the rest was growing far too big . What evidence is there for this? Well it is probably worth looking back a bit .

Riders such as Dan Clark, Sam Connor, Ian Austermuhle, Gary MacDonald, Dan Thorpe, Michael Phillipson , Ben and Dan Hemingway, Martin Crosswaite, etc and here are a lot of others, drooped out of Championship class. Anyone who thinks these are not top riders is a fool – end of

BUT, in recent years these riders either found they were just not enjoying the series, found the sections too severe and possibly dangerous for their current ability ( and many worry about going to work on a Monday) ,

I realise I do not have the trials knowledge of many of the people who post, but I do know that to be able to ride at the top level in British Championship, and to be able to do so safely, riders will need to practice, and certainly one of the problems found in recent years was to be able to devote enough time to do so for level required, and importantly to be able to find a Minder/catcher who was able to attend the practice sections as well as events

Is this in any way the fault of then top few riders ? Of course not, they have worked hard and made such arrangements , and spent hours and hours perfecting the skill needed. BUT many other good capable riders, have just dropped out – fact

Some dropped down to Expert ( there was only Expert A originally) but this in itself caused some controversy I recall

What we really do have to ask is do we want to see these riders i.e other than the top 3 – 5 in the Championship class?

Possibly not. Possibly everyone is quite content with just a very small select entry , over challenging World type sections , this certainly provided spectacular viewing, provided our World runners with a stepping stone and then the entry can be made up of another 50 riders or so competing on an easier course?

I have no problem with this really. But wait a minute, is this not exactly what we have had over last few years?

Was it good? Was everyone happy? I have searched and searched the past posts and also Press and I am struggling to find rider comments or others who stated how good this Championship was. I am struggling in fact to find anyone who was really satisfied with it. How come many of you did not express some support when we did this?

Yes for sure, I can find lots of comments of how it should be ie good venues with proper car parking, Promotion, Publicity, get it on the 10.00clock news and so on. All these suggestions are great, but all have something in common – they all expect someone else to do it. Like magic, it all needs to be done , but by others

When I talk to some who are really vociferous in telling others how the events should be run, it is usually about 15 min’s into the conversation when it transpires they would do it, if they could make a good living out of it, or they are “ too busy” ( making money) and just want to talk about it. Great

We have been over all this before , it is going off subject. Those who have ideas , yes certainly put them forward BUT, in a realistic way, with some definitive suggestions of how it should be paid for.

Next, and part of same topic really, I have stated before that all the posts on TC etc can say what they like , but we still have to have 6 or 8 organisers to run the events. Are you prepared to put on events that may only have a few in the Championship class? My Club has been, but how about the rest of you – just talk is no good.

I have noted, and stated before that some who are most vociferous in saying how it should all be run , never apply to do so. Why not?

Fantastic if you are concerned ( as all T & E are) that we must cater for our top 3 or 4 – but how?

Equally, let is look at the number/entry topic, as again there is a lot of nonsense talked

Fact : Under the previous system the entry was always limited – 50 and then 55. So it is ridiculous to say that the new format ( 2012) is fantastic because there are perhaps 70 riders. It is not really relevant as there could not have been 70 riders before.

I do not believe statistics can always be a true reflection of things, but for those who enjoy this sort of thing:

In 2012 10 riders contested the Championship class – Only 5 entered all rounds

Devon had Championship riders = 6, Mackenzie = 7 , Mitchell = 6

18 were in Expert A class, Only 4 took points in all rounds

Entries – Rd 1 = 53 Rd 2 = 55 , Rd 3 = 43, Rd 4 = 51 Rd 5 = 50 Rd 6 = 54, Rd 7 =42 Rd 8 =50

( figures done in a rush but correct or very near)

Except for a couple of rounds the entry was not far from max. It must be stated however that I know from my own clubs efforts that if in a particular year the entry drops to about 40, as a club we lose about £500. This is made up from then week in week out normal events ( and we do not have big entries down here) In other words we “ subsidise” the BC. This does not normally bother us too much as we do not run the BC to make money – we run it because we believe that Clubs need to maintain Championships. Some others who are not involved may feel like looking at this principle ?

All except one round are run by Clubs or Centre ( Mitchell). It is not a money spinner. They do it to put something back, because they wish to se a BC, and because they are true enthusiasts like all those who week in week out put on events

Before you post on TC – perhaps you could ask yourselves “ What have I done in last 12 months”

For many of you I know the answer is a lot , and even if you are the most ardent critic of BC, Stop or No -Stop or the Trials and Enduro Committee , I have time and respect for you. For the others who have done sod all in any given 12 months – except tell us all how it should be done, I am afraid my patience is wearing thin.

Fact: Too many used the statistic of a smaller entry in past to decry the series , this was not fair and should not have been used to such extend. A Championship cannot always be judged by the number of participants – look at other sports

However: What was apparent, as I have alluded to before, was that the Championship class had tended to shrink, and in all honesty it did not look that there would be a great number of riders coming in future years, so there was a danger we could arrive at a Championship class with a number of riders one could count on one hand. If this looked like being the case( and it was) then it was time to at least look for a new approach, whatever it was.

Now to the rounds held so far, and as someone has already posted we are TWO jobs into the task

It is absolutely absurd to have 7 pages of posts trying to form a valid conclusion after just two rounds

Also , these were certainly two very different rounds

It is totally wrong to throw hand up in air after Westwood and rant that it is just not working

It is also totally wrong to try to convince everyone how wonderful it all is because it worked well in Scotland.

We have only had two rounds, it is not enough for sound opinion. That is part of exercise.

I was not unfortunately at Westwood , and it is not fair to make too many comments, but it does look as if many regarded it as unsatisfactory. It is not correct to point fingers at people, especially if one was not there or not aware ( as is obvious when reading about theories about who was Clerk of Course)

The event will be looked at in more detail by T & E in due course

I was in Scotland , and I can only say that personally, I enjoyed the atmosphere , and I also thoroughly enjoyed seeing a whole host of riders who I would not normally see competing in the Championship class. I have always thought Ian Austemuhle one of the neatest riders I have seen, and I was glad to see him back in mix. Last year along with many others he was just not in the Championship class, and I think this devalued it.

I walked every inch of the course and sections on my own on the Friday ( which was miles ) and also got lost deep in Forest! but it was obvious from the first 100yards that a huge effort had been made , and for sure the Clerk of Course had set out to embrace the new rules.( even if he liked them or not) Everyone however is well aware that the venue and experience of personnel in Scotland regarding No-Stop events will be a big advantage

On the Saturday, the course was walked again , with myself, the importers and Clerk of Course and some small changes made – WITH FULL APPROVAL AND AGREEMENT of C/Course.

As Big John has already stated , there was a rider briefing ( and I am pleased to say the riders were excellent and took it all on board) On Sunday morning we did an Observer briefing

About the day, everyone will have their own opinion.

I am a bit perturbed by one of the early posts that state that most of the riders told him that they did not enjoy it – this was certainly not the impression I got to the many I spoke to ( although the top riders were clear they did not – but to their credit in this round they got on with it and gave it a good go)

If a lot of riders were telling the person who posted that they did not like it , and then telling me ( as they did) that they did – we have a problem, or as the Indians you to say “ Riders speak with forked tongue”

I do not know, if the same procedure was followed at Westwood, it does appear not, and this needs to be looked at

Now a few more facts: The Clerk of Course ( and I mean the guy with the licence) is totally responsible for the event – end of.

It is however often practice to have the Clerk of Course as sort of “ foreman” and have someone else to actually mark sections etc. Nothing wrong with this, as long as C/Course has faith in it , is consulted and accepts that he still has overall responsibility – end of

Importers: This will always be a thorny subject, and it perhaps needs a little light thrown on subject

The Importers did not make the decision to go No-Stop – end of

Yes, for many years most of them, and now all, believe that something needed to change, and Yes they have been very vociferous in these views. Yes they have mostly advocated a return to No-Stop rules.

However, everyone is entitled to opinion – and I am willing to put mine on record. I do not for one second believe that the main reason for their influence was just about selling bikes. I know others may, but I do not.

Many of you know them personally and they will confirm that for many years many have attended the BC Trials Meeting , and asked for a return to No –Stop. This has always , until know been declined, much to their frustration it must be said. However, for many of the reasons already stated , they and many others felt strongly it was time at least try something. After the cancelled meeting I referred to at start , the Importers requested a meeting with T & E , which was held, and AFTER this, the T &E ( after a lot of deliberation already having taken place) made decision to try No-Stop for 2012.

There was another BC meeting held to discuss the final details etc, and certainly at this meeting the top riders had an input, but it must be admitted that the die was cast and we would be trying No-Stop for BC in 2012 – end of

You may not agree with me( not that many do) but I do not tell lies, I tell it like it is, as do most from my neck of woods. I can honestly and categorically say that in Scotland , when the Importers walked the sections I saw absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the intention was to cater for their own riders. The exact opposite was true and in one case in particular, a section would have been excellent for the riders of each Importer, but their concern was absolutely for the riders lower down the order and their safety, and with Clerk of Course fully involved, the step was taken out

There is obviously an opinion that Messrs Rathmell, Lampkin, Shirt, Saunders, Birkett have an influence

I am certainly not in awe of these names, as they will quickly tell you , but if anyone thinks the experience and ability of these past riders should be totally ignored just because they know Import bikes, I am sorry , I just cannot agree

The original intention was that the Importers would arrive at an event and offer advice and help. The Clerk of Course would be involved. As I have already said, it may have gone differently in Westwood, we will have to investigate

Moving on: I am actually ( I may be alone) not that totally devastated that Rd 2 was not regarded as a huge success by all. Surely this is part of the whole exercise? Not all venues will be perfect for a particular set of rules, Not all Clerk of Course will think same way? This must all be part of the process

I was the Steward at Westwood last year, and if those who are now telling us all how wonderful it was , this is not the actual case. I know the complaints I received , including from some top riders, I know the concerns that were expressed by a few about safety in one section. Like I said earlier , no two events will be the same regardless of rules

Finally a few important facts

The series will run until the end of season under No –Stop – end of

It is not valid to keep stating that riding 6 separate days of the BC under No – Stop is a huge disadvantage to WC riders , but riding 6 Days at SSDT and other S3parts and others is not

Equally, there is no doubt we have to consider in future exactly what we want form BC. Certainly in past it has always been intention to make it a stepping stone to European and World rounds. The T & E have supported that principle for many years ( and been severely criticised for doing so)

However, things they are a changing, and the number of UK riders contesting WC and UEM has shrunk ( although some posts have taken a blind disregard of this and just jumped on bandwagon without actually looking at numbers)

Should the main aim of BC be to cater for the World runners? – possibly, this needs debate – but sensible debate

We would still need someone to organise the events, and I have to tell you that many past organisers have just got more and more disillusioned by being told by so many ( including top riders) that the series was crap

I have stated before, but will again, that before any rule changes were made for 2012, it was far from clear if we would have enough of the WC riders in the BC to fill a phone box - fact

I have no problem with the post that Ben Wibberley initially sent in . I may not agree with it, but he had the balls to put his name on it and I will study every word

For me, what riders now need to do is to get on with it, and then at end of year, express a view that is honest and sincere. I fully expect many to say “ Well we have tried it – and we think it is crap” I fully expect others to say “ Well it has brought us back into the Championship and we have enjoyed most of it”

I have no idea how it will all pan out , and as I have said before, neither do any of you

Any rider who is just deliberately determined to just harp on and on about it at present is not giving it a fair chance.

Finally Finally, and important.

There has been great analysis about the Observing. At the end of it all the guy is making a judgment as he/she sees it. The Clerk of Course should try to help of course in the plotting of the sections and not make it too difficult for them to do this. This again is an important part of the experiment – can No-Stop section at Championship level be observed fairly and consistently - over a season – not just one trial?

HOWEVER HOWEVER HOWEVER - There is no excuse of arguing or abusing Officials and Observers

I wish to make my feelings quite clear. We have clear regulations regarding this - riders and entourage need to read TSR27

I have stated I was not at Westwood, so hearsay is not appropriate, but I wish to send a clear warning – abuse to Officials will not be tolerated , regardless of Stop or No –Stop, and those who do so are taking a big risk

Please do not think that disciplinary action may only apply to a particular event – this is not necessarily so , and there is a very real possibility of Disciplinary action being taken , and again the regulation will allow for action to be taken against riders if their helpers/ followers or others associated with that rider somehow feel they have the right to shout and rant at Observers/Officials. We just ain’t having it.

That is not a threat – it is a promise. Enough is enough

Can we please just now see how the season pans out and THEN, we will all be able to contribute a more educated opinion

Unfortunately each day we see more threats to our sport heading our way, and much of this may appear insignificant in the future – please let is just get on with it while we still can

[big john]

Well then there we have it, I say this, let the championship continue on TSR22B (No-stop) for 2012, either "put up" or "shut up"!

The powers that be, the ACU, will analyse the series after it has concluded and then decide the way forward for the BTC.

Big John

[old trials fanatic]

Thanks for that Mr Collins. Long overdue, i know it wasnt your fault you couldnt post before, response to all the negativity about the experiment.

Well said. Now lets see as John says how it pans out over the season.

However i am sure the stop is gooooood no stop is baaaaad debate will rage on under a new topic. Sadly

[minder]

Has anybody noticed that sometimes people give us their opinion and drop hints as though they know what they are talking about when actually they are making things up based on hearsay. Here are some samples

"They MAY have permission to look at the sections but I believe the C0fC at Westwood was not happy about them being involved and did not approve of the "alterations"......"The opinion of the CofC was ignored and my Info was he was there on Saturday...."

Please lets not make things up when most people are coming up with some good points based on fact. The CoC was not there on saturday and didnt actually have anything to do with the sections. The improters spent all day 'modifying' the sections before and after the practice as many of the sections were either dangerous or couldnt be ridden no-stop. Some were eased, some were stiffened up. Surely they cant be criticised for that - giving up their own time in an effort to try and make the trial a success.

[telecat]

Has anybody noticed that sometimes people give us their opinion and drop hints as though they know what they are talking about when actually they are making things up based on hearsay. Here are some samples

"They MAY have permission to look at the sections but I believe the C0fC at Westwood was not happy about them being involved and did not approve of the "alterations"......"The opinion of the CofC was ignored and my Info was he was there on Saturday...."

Please lets not make things up when most people are coming up with some good points based on fact. The CoC was not there on Saturday and didn't actually have anything to do with the sections. The importers spent all day 'modifying' the sections before and after the practice as many of the sections were either dangerous or couldn't be ridden no-stop. Some were eased, some were stiffened up. Surely they cant be criticised for that - giving up their own time in an effort to try and make the trial a success.

I went to the Trial and asked around. The "Opinions" were from the people who had seen Graham and talked to him and had seen what was going on. These were the people who volunteered and actually DO "Give up their own Time". The Importers if they did as you state didn't do that good a job. As for "giving up their own time", Trials is pretty much THEIR JOB. The other thing is WHY haven't they been there in the past if they felt it so important? John has pretty much confirmed that the Importers have wanted "No-Stop" and pestered everybody until they got it.

I again ask the question. If that is what they wanted why haven't they put the money in to Sponsor a BTC under "No-Stop"?

[baldilocks]

see your other post on 2012 Raga prices. Importers could fund a series but bike prices would need to increase and nobody is going to vote for that.

[nigel dabster]

Again great to get Johns answer, opinion and facts, but my question that hasn't been clearly answered is, What at the end of 2012 will measure whether the change to no stop has been a success?

[jimmyl]

"Again great to get Johns answer, opinion and facts, but my question that hasn't been clearly answered is, What at the end of 2012 will measure whether the change to no stop has been a success? "

Presume as happens every year all interested parties will be invited to the annual BTC meeting held by the ACU and 2012 will be discussed and reviewed and an agrement made for 2013.

I think maybe a few more people may attend this year than in the past few years!

[john collins]

That is actually a very good question Nigel, and I have to be honest and state that at this point in time I am not exactly sure, and it certainly will not be something that can provide a definitive answer

However, I do think it will leave us in a better position than we were before

For myself for example, I have always tried to keep an open mind on the subject, I still ride, and observe and act as Clerk of Course in trials under both sets of rules. I do not subscribe to the theory that one set is a magic answer and the other rubbish. Both have pro’s and con’s

In past discussions however ( and I have been involved in a hell of a lot) it is often theoretical about one set or another and the examples we have are not always relevant. I doubt if there are many discussions about No-Stop that have not involved mention of SSDT and Scott as examples, and I have always always argued that these do not give a true reflection of situation as they are unique events .

Equally, we have the S3Parts running very well under No-Stop and without many of problems that were feared BUT again there is a separate set of circumstance ie large lap that can take in suitable terrain and so forth

We also have to admit that the S3Parts has never been a “ stepping stone” for our top riders on way to World rounds etc, and is very much aimed at lower order riders, therefore the same criteria cannot always be used for assessment

At the end of 2012 however, I HOPE we will have a true assessment of the No-Stop rules that we can at least form an opinion of – when used at our highest level, which they have not been for may years.

Then – the conversation can actually refer to what has actually happened in regard to course, sections, observing, popularity etc.

This is why it is extremely important in my opinion for the riders – from Top to Bottom to give it a true attempt and not attempt a negative stance etc. I know they do not like it –or at least the top few BUT they really do need to get on with it

If not , at the end of year the series has been problematic, those who strongly advocate No-Stop , will be able to say that it was not given a fair chance because the riders destroyed it – and they will be right

Equally, if those who are totally against the No-Stop rules are able to show the pitfalls, this will have an influence on those not so sure

We need to remember that while some are passionately for or against No-Stop, there are a hell of a lot of others who have an open mind and just want to see how it goes , and get on with more important things( I am in this camp)

I have said before the whole topic has gone on far too long. At least at end of 2012 I believe we will have a better idea. Certainly not a magic one, but at least a better one.

Then , I would hope we could certainly ask all those involved for a more educated opinion. Certainly riders can be asked , and we can try to establish a good way of doing so. Certainly organisers both past and potential can be consulted, and Yes – we will also be speaking to the Importers. At end of it all I hope T & E will be able to glean some better valid opinion than we have had before

Do I think there will be a clear indication one way or the other – Honest answer no

But I do think we can also say that the present T & E have at least made an attempt to try something that may at least make arguments either way more valid

Finally, it may be that there is an acceptance that we are not at present able to cater for our top World runners in this series, and it may be that we look ( and this is where all the posts that have so much to say telling others what to do) at an alternative for this aim