Rider Statistics

[atomant]

Thanks for posting John. The figure of 8K you suggest is as good as a figure I'm going to get so thanks for that

[pete_scorpa3]

......and many becuse they have also done so and believe that paying £10 gets them a handbook ( or CD) the weekly newsletters, the magazine a few times a year etc

Thanks for the reply John, just out of interest, would you say that the £10 fee actually covers the full cost of producing and delivering the handbook/CD and the Trials Registration Card itself? Or are we (as trials riders) getting off lightly?

[shedco]

Pete the Acu is loaded.

Its got over £2 million cash in bank with only £ 280,000 of liabilities!

Not many companies like this in the current financial climate.

[grumpyoldman]

Wonder how many have no registration at all?

Me!! My local club has just left the ACU and the other is AMCA but doesn't require registration (as far as I can tell).

I joined the ACU last year as I did an LDT and was about to get my trials bike but I didn't receive anything other than a membership card from them until a week before it expired, when I started getting the worlds most boring (for me) newsletter by email and I'm still receiving it but you need a membership number to unsubscribe, which I don't have!!

I would guess the nearest you could get to a figure for annual active members is the average entry per trial over a year multiplied by the number of clubs.

I have long wondered what any professional organisation does for it's grass roots members - my architectural body serve no purpose to me other than registration to trade and all for a mere £200ish per year. They like attending all the freebie shows and posh functions though.

[pete_scorpa3]

I guess there will always be people who complain, even if they are getting value for money, £10 a year for trials registration and events that normally cost less than £15 to enter is not expensive. There are many sports that cost far more than that before you even turn a wheel or kick a ball or what ever.

The ACU might well be worth millions, but that was not my question. I asked John if the £10 covers the cost of the handbook and the registration card.

I will stop now, as AtomAnt's original post was not about having a go at the ACU, it was about the number of trials riders. And people seem determined to ambush the thread to do some ACU bashing.

[john collins]

I can see that Atom Ant did not set this post off as a debate on the money side - I think I was guilty of going off on that tangent - so sorry

Not to get too embroiled in the money side of things - as everyone applies their own logic to this -which is often very flawed indeed and is often looked at in a very selective way without any reaslistic idea of the actual facts, I will just answer the question asked about book, CD and so on

It was a few years ago when I last looked at some actual figures in regard to this - but roughly I would say that the cost of production of the handbook and the postage in sending it out , plus the magazine cost and sending it out took up the £10

We have had all the arguments about this before so I have no intention of going into it all again, suffice it to say that all the legal advice we have had over the years , and experince in fighting claims etc have indicated that tyhe handbook is very important, and until we are convinced otherwise, we will continue with it

Also remeber that it is sent out to licenced Officials ( obviously they do not have to pay) and this to me is important. The protection of our Officials alone is of paramount impoprtance

I have said that I am not going to go into finances , but one thing does need stating is that each discipline contributes via licences or rides, and each discipline has costs, simples - however thge clue is in last letter of ACU ie Union, and therfore as a multi disciplined Federation, things are complicated , for example, one disciplkine cannot exxpect all the others to pay foor light, telephones, rates and so on.There is a common thread which has to be shared.

I am afraid Shedco is miles off the mark if he thinks the ACU is "loaded" - and I know he may think that I would say that, it is however a myth in this day and age for practically all Federations throughout world.

[shedco]

I realise now I should have started a new topic on the ACU,

I apologise for the ambush of this topic.

However the ACU must be making a massive profit on some of the

services it provides to have £2,046,434 in the bank & have a net worth of

£3,340,778.

My statement is a fact, not a myth.

[breagh]

Don't know much about finance,but as the ACU have been around about 100 years and administer 1000s of events, sound's like peanuts.

Pretty sure the ACU will be just like your local bike club but on a bigger scale.

Plenty members,with a few hard workers doing it for little if any gain.

If there's a queue to get on the trials committee it would shock me.

[nigel dabster]

Seing as the ACU belongs to us members that money Shedco belongs to you and me and every member. If you think it is loaded just get voted on and spend it?

[nigel dabster]

as an aside our club needed some money recently and we were offered a few thousand at a below commercial rate so perhaps the money is being/can be used for the greater good.

[timp]

Perhaps a more accurate figure for competing trials riders would come from the total trials levys or insurance paid each week or year. I guess this figure must be available.

[john collins]

I did say that I was not going to turn a simple post about statistics into one about finance and so on, and I also accept that Shedco did not attempt to so either

However , when I stated that the statement that the ACU is loaded and making large profits etc is a myth, I stand 100% behind that remark. I am not an accountant, and frankly wading through accounts and statistics is about the thing I least enjoy. However, as Vice Chairman and Director of a company, who therefore by definition may be held financially accountable on a personnel note ( as are other Directors) I do have a fairly good idea of the state of play

You can never win on any debate such as this , as statistics and figures can be used out of context and often accounting procedures, time of closing accounts etc all have an influence

What I can tell you , is if you look past selective part of accounts – and move to the bottom line which will show the “ Profit for Financial Year” - the figure for the year ending 2011 states £925. I think I made more than that selling some odd crap on EBay last year!

However, in the same vane as I state that accounts read often as one wants to read them, I would equally say that I am never that convinced about any bottom line in any accounts –

For me – there is a very simple litmus test. If the ACU are making large profits and year on year increasing its bank balance and sitting on large pots of money for sake of it or just to accumulate wealth when it could be doing far better things, this in my opinion would be totally wrong, and I for one would be ready to walk away from the whole shooting match.

I appreciate that everyone will never agree with what I say on any subject ( life would be a very boring place if we all did) BUT – I do not ever intentionally tell lies – it is a rule of mine. I can be wrong, I can be mistaken – but I never intentionally lie on a subject.

The hard fact is, that if the ACU can this year and next, pay its bills, and do exactly what it is doing now – I for one will be over the moon. It is not raking in money, it is struggling to maintain its current position

Perhaps I should look at “ assets” - and while not an expert as I have said , I have been told by those who know that the figure shown is not enough. This apparently has to do with all sorts of things, not least in order to protect our Clubs and Centres. I do not intend to go into huge detail on an open forum – but older readers I think ( certainly Centre Officials) will remember a situation in Matchams MX park – many years ago now

If that situation arose again now, we would worry one hell of a lot about assets in the bank ( or certainly I would)

Let me give a few simpler examples. Insurance. Like on our cars – we have things for want of a better word called excess ( not quite right term in this context) It is often £25k or more. So in a given year, if there were 10 claims to pay out which fell under this part ( obviously not all do) that can add up to ¼ million in a year.

Some claims can be on books for years – for example, a 6 yr old Youth does not need to submit a claim just before his/her 21^st birthday , so realistically there can always be 15 years of claims in the pipeline.

In order to even partly account for this, a reserve needs to be kept. Equally the ACU for last few years has its own Insurance company ( ACUI) dealing with a certain layer of claims – this money has to come out of assets .

This is a forward looking incentive which will probably bear fruit some 10 years hence ( hopefully) and perhaps put our younger riders in a better position than we do know with finding realistic Insurance costs. We also have an incentive called a “Captive” which again can draw on ACU reserves when required. The figures involved are big – very big.

This last point is very very important . The ACU , and probably other Federations pay for Insurance of a sort of total sum principle ie not event by event. Usually, in order to get best deal for our riders and organisers ( and people who like balance sheets need to look at fact that we manage to hold event premiums quite well in difficult times) it is usually a 3 year deal. Now – if all goes to plan, and the amount we are due to pay is collected in – happy days. So if for example the total Insurance payment due was £1.5 million and we collect £1.5 million – great. If we collect £1.6 million even better ( but it just ain’t happening these days) HOWEVER – if we collect only £1millioin in insurance payments , the nice Insurance man still wants his dosh., Result – ACU has to find ½ million perhaps each year for 3 years – this may explain why reserves are needed.

Is it likely to happen? Unfortunately yes if we are unlucky. Remember DEFRA when lots of events were cancelled? Remember Foot & Mouth? Just a few examples of how numbers fall dramatically and hence the collection of insurance monies from events. Certainly the present economic climate will not help to maintain numbers? Mr Insurance will still need his payment each year – hence the need for reserves. Frankly, if they are not there, they are not going to be knocking on your door – but they may on mine.

Any company who does not hold these reserves has Directors who are irresponsible at best, and probably legally deficient as well ( FSA)

As I said – all complicated stuff. It always boils down in end to people who believe there is this huge wealth just lolling about – sorry no

It also boils down to people being easily able to say on a site or in Press – well you should not waste money on this – but you should spend more on that etc etc. This happens in all walks of life, and certainly in our day to day employment ie we believe those at top could spend better etc

There is no real problem with people thinking this – I think I did too if I am honest, BEFORE I got more involved

At end of day – it is very easy in some ways to act upon – A person who has answers on finance matters and has concerns on how ACU monies are collected / spent just stands for an ACU Director. In many cases , it is not as time consuming as standing for a Sport Committee ( they do not deal with ACU finance as such )

Actually, if one looks back as Elections, the record will show that very few people ever do this, and when someone stands down or retires there never seems to be a great queue to replace them ( I certainly had no desire to be an ACU Director until rules changes an Committee Chairman had to)

Finally Finally - I hope this has cleared up a few things – although we all accept this was not intention of post or postees since

I have always said however, that those who are convinced that ACU is this huge rich body just screwing the riders – I would be prepared to sit down with them in Rugby and actually look at it all – we can have 3 Independent people from TC if you like. Everyone travels to Rugby –we spend a day on it. I will spend a day or two preparing papers

If at end of that those concerned then believe the ACU is raking it in and making these huge profits – I will pay £500 out of my own pocket to Cancer Research. All I ask is that anyone instigating this should be prepared to put up £500 from their pocket to the same charity if proved wrong

At end of day – frankly , if we as Trials riders are finding the initial payment of £10 ( see other posts on Forum ) as too onerous for a years sport , I am afraid I just cannot comprehend this is any shape or form – which is where I came in .