Are You Running Too Much Oil In Your 2T Mix?

[tony27]

If the Valvoline is a synthetic oil then you can run quite a bit leaner oil wise, my CZ400 vmx bike was originally meant to run at 20:1 but the recommendations made nowadays by most experts are to use full synthetic at 40:1 which has proven fine.

Only thing is that you need to lean off the jetting to make up for there being more fuel in the mix due to less oil

[jon v8]

Ok Jon v8 here is an example of an oil manifacturer that is soo sure the quality ot the product that they are willing to stake their reputation onit! Run your strimmer and saws as hard as you like at 100:1. And it ain't no old style blend!

Sorry,I think people get too hung up on oils - I run a Land Rover garage as an independant and I'm a member of a small LR only trade forum.One of the members recently started a thread about 5w/30 diesel oils - he currently stocks 5 different types just for current LR engines...Crazy really,but he insists on having the exact spec.

All my 2 stroke stuff will continue to run at 50-1 on Castrol TTS cos its working well,no coking up,no excess wear etc.The TY250 was rebuilt with in 2006 with a piston I wasnt too happy with,(It rattles too much for my liking)but is no worse now than it was when built.That bike has done alot of hard work since.About about a year ago I looked up the exhaust port - all good,just light marking on the piston,bore was good.

So as far as I'm concerned its not broken,ANY of the current oils ought to be better than when that bike was built in 78.

My time is better spent on keeping Lucas racing magneto's in good order....

[ham2]

Baldilocks states 80cc per 5 L and Copey endorses 62cc per 5 L, I go for 75cc per 5L.

As long as it's fully synthetic I don't worry..at all

Besides, unless we're using a laboratory standard pippette, we couldn't be that sure how accurately we're pouring this 'syrup' anyway.

So it comes down to a tolerance of about + /-10cc,can you visualise that amount? (Nobody mention how the rock band got their name )

Edited July 5, 2012 by ham2

[ikb]

Gas Gas 75 to 1 Fully Synthetic

Montesa 200 (1982) 50 to 1 Semi Synthetic

Its Just what seems right!!

[0007]

I think this is an un answearable question simply because every one has their own opinion

Usually it's because "I have always done it like this" so it's more habit than science

My background is 30+ years in the industry, much of which i was a service tech and a decade of service and warranty with a major Japanese manufacturer

I can say that I have never seen oil fail regardless as to how much you paid for it, it would appear that if it's there it works, even lean ratios seem to let an engine live, if you have the cushion, you have the cushion, you can't really have more

If metal touches metal you have a failure, end of story, you don't get an engine that wears more rapidly than another because of oil type, again metal contact welds metal as quick as 60 cycles depending on load of course

Most failures are probably fuel related or other mechanical problems

The issues would be ring seal, more oil makes better sealing, no doubt about it

And carbon buildup, which means more is not better

The only time I have seen oil actually cause failures is when the incorrect oil is used, say marine oils which are low in ash, these oils are made for low revving cool running engines

And old school types who insist on 20:1 with modern oils, carbon build up can increase compression even to the point where the piston contacting the carbon can cause a knock or even rod failure, also plugging up the exhaust port changing port timing

So a decent correct spec oil at a reasonable ratio is going to work fine

I had a detonation in my 07 Rev and ran a couple of tanks through with Ring Free and the deto went away, tells me I had a carbon issue

So there's my opinion, I have seen a lot of broken stuff I'm my Carreer but I doubt everyone will agree with me LOL

[pete_scorpa3]

I think this is an un answearable question simply because every one has their own opinion

Usually it's because "I have always done it like this" so it's more habit than science

My background is 30+ years in the industry, much of which i was a service tech and a decade of service and warranty with a major Japanese manufacturer

I can say that I have never seen oil fail regardless as to how much you paid for it, it would appear that if it's there it works, even lean ratios seem to let an engine live, if you have the cushion, you have the cushion, you can't really have more

If metal touches metal you have a failure, end of story, you don't get an engine that wears more rapidly than another because of oil type, again metal contact welds metal as quick as 60 cycles depending on load of course

Most failures are probably fuel related or other mechanical problems

The issues would be ring seal, more oil makes better sealing, no doubt about it

And carbon buildup, which means more is not better

The only time I have seen oil actually cause failures is when the incorrect oil is used, say marine oils which are low in ash, these oils are made for low revving cool running engines

And old school types who insist on 20:1 with modern oils, carbon build up can increase compression even to the point where the piston contacting the carbon can cause a knock or even rod failure, also plugging up the exhaust port changing port timing

So a decent correct spec oil at a reasonable ratio is going to work fine

I had a detonation in my 07 Rev and ran a couple of tanks through with Ring Free and the deto went away, tells me I had a carbon issue

So there's my opinion, I have seen a lot of broken stuff I'm my Carreer but I doubt everyone will agree with me LOL

Purely out of interest, what ratio of oil do you use in your 07 Rev?

[manofsteele]

Montesa 315, Denicol fully synth. 70ml per 5L.

[pindie]

I use two oils. Both at 60-1 or 16ml of oil per litre of Tesco 99 Ron petrol. 2007 Rev3 200

1. A747 - Holidays and high days. I use it when doing trail/road work as the motor gets hot and burns it off. The bike runs really smooth, strong and creamy but you do need heat so using it all the time is probably not good if you ride in a compact area in 2nd gear with no revs from what I read on here. My practice area is 2 miles away and I get to clear the bike motor of any build up of oil. I ride for 2 hrs (low speed) and hoon it home agin getting the motor hot to burn an A747 build up off. No oil has the whiff like this!

2. Putoline strawberry stuff - Trial comps, cold days or long day outs with a group (in case you need to blag fuel). In a trial you often are waiting to get into a section, riding up a stream or chugging around at low revs nearly all day. The "trick" synth oils do burn off better and give a cleaner motor for this style riding. Makes my beta power snappy and the engine feels rattly and fragile. It does run ever so clean though on this oil. When I ride to my practise area the bike feels weak and as a result I take my time.

You'll never have a bearing go or seize with A747 but you do need some heat from time to time. Its cheap if you go to Thunderoad Motorcycles in Bridgend - £8.00 per litre. They will put it in the post if you live elsewhere.

Putoline fully synth (other brands are available) will do everything apart from smell nice once burnt. You will have no issues either unless your jetting is way out or you abuse your motor.

YOU MUST NOT MIX A747 FUEL WITH A FULLY SYNTH! Use your tank up (either mix) and fill with the changed fuel and ride till used up - do not let new added fuel sit in the garage for week inside the tank. I have never had a clog doing this.

Trials bikes are delicate little things compared to an MXer and as a result need finesse and respect. If wide-open-throttle-front-wheel-skimming-the-ground is your bag then you may have the wrong bike and not enough oil in your mix.

If you need some quick squirts of full throttle to get up a ledge or short climb then 60-1 or leaner if you wish will be fine. Afterall, how many people have you seen seize a well ridden and maintained bike at a trial?

Bottom line? If your not a fiddler/fettler use a fully synth! If you like the good old days have a splash of A747 from time to time -mmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Just like the old GP bikes.

Edited July 5, 2012 by pindie

[copemech]

I have a Bultaco 158. I would like to reduce the amount of oil I use as the bike produces copious amounts of smoke and gunk, However 25:1 is what the manufacturer recommended using mineral 2 stroke oil. I am using Valvoline racing 2 stoke at 25:1 at the moment. I intend using the bike for a mix of trials and trail riding. What do you recommend?

I also run a Metralla MK2 on the same brew, constant high speeds.

Seems about 50:1 would be the accepted standard for the air cooled trials bikes nowa. No idea about the Metrella, depends on just how hard one is running it, but I would not think any more than 32:1.

[copemech]

Sorry,I think people get too hung up on oils - I run a Land Rover garage as an independant and I'm a member of a small LR only trade forum.One of the members recently started a thread about 5w/30 diesel oils - he currently stocks 5 different types just for current LR engines...Crazy really,but he insists on having the exact spec.

All my 2 stroke stuff will continue to run at 50-1 on Castrol TTS cos its working well,no coking up,no excess wear etc.The TY250 was rebuilt with in 2006 with a piston I wasnt too happy with,(It rattles too much for my liking)but is no worse now than it was when built.That bike has done alot of hard work since.About about a year ago I looked up the exhaust port - all good,just light marking on the piston,bore was good.

So as far as I'm concerned its not broken,ANY of the current oils ought to be better than when that bike was built in 78.

My time is better spent on keeping Lucas racing magneto's in good order....

Mind you I do not totally disagree with the logic here. Therefore I just run the strimmer and saw on the bike mix!!!! Don't run the saw too hard though.

[copemech]

I think this is an un answearable question simply because every one has their own opinion

Usually it's because "I have always done it like this" so it's more habit than science

My background is 30+ years in the industry, much of which i was a service tech and a decade of service and warranty with a major Japanese manufacturer

I can say that I have never seen oil fail regardless as to how much you paid for it, it would appear that if it's there it works, even lean ratios seem to let an engine live, if you have the cushion, you have the cushion, you can't really have more

If metal touches metal you have a failure, end of story, you don't get an engine that wears more rapidly than another because of oil type, again metal contact welds metal as quick as 60 cycles depending on load of course

Most failures are probably fuel related or other mechanical problems

The issues would be ring seal, more oil makes better sealing, no doubt about it

And carbon buildup, which means more is not better

The only time I have seen oil actually cause failures is when the incorrect oil is used, say marine oils which are low in ash, these oils are made for low revving cool running engines

And old school types who insist on 20:1 with modern oils, carbon build up can increase compression even to the point where the piston contacting the carbon can cause a knock or even rod failure, also plugging up the exhaust port changing port timing

So a decent correct spec oil at a reasonable ratio is going to work fine

I had a detonation in my 07 Rev and ran a couple of tanks through with Ring Free and the deto went away, tells me I had a carbon issue

So there's my opinion, I have seen a lot of broken stuff I'm my Carreer but I doubt everyone will agree with me LOL

Yes you are correct here in soo many ways! And just that being the point of the discussion. You see we have already found some running way too much, and even though I feel 80:1 is conservative enough, there are still those that doubt that number, although well proven.

[copemech]

Baldilocks states 80cc per 5 L and Copey endorses 62cc per 5 L, I go for 75cc per 5L.

As long as it's fully synthetic I don't worry..at all

Besides, unless we're using a laboratory standard pippette, we couldn't be that sure how accurately we're pouring this 'syrup' anyway.

So it comes down to a tolerance of about + /-10cc,can you visualise that amount? (Nobody mention how the rock band got their name )

My vial is calibrated in 10ml increments, so I know. Then I flush it with the fuel to return the clinging remains, so should be close!

[ham2]

My vial is calibrated in 10ml increments, so I know. Then I flush it with the fuel to return the clinging remains, so should be close!

You're kidding me?

How accurately spaced are your 10cc increments? 1mm/2mm apart?

Even taking into account your extreme ambient day-time temperatures over there, and the resulting lower viscosity,the meniscus of this treacle we're using must be about 1mm...throw in a hint of parallax error...and you're left with? ......a good guess.

Discuss.....

[ikb]

My vial is calibrated in 10ml increments, so I know. Then I flush it with the fuel to return the clinging remains, so should be close!

Not wanting to brag but mine is marked in 1ml increments

http://www.rapidonline.com/Education/Plastic-Measuring-Cylinder-100ml-single-14-2030

[ham2]

Not wanting to brag but mine is marked in 1ml increments

http://www.rapidonli...-single-14-2030

That's a canny birra kit.....like.