Late Entries

[gizza5]

Now before I start I this is not critical of the riders or the club, but as reported the Bullock brothers were not able to ride because the entries were closed?

Shirty's point is valid in the troubled times of BTC competition you would have thought the effort put in by the club to run the event they would want as many riders as possible?

On the flip side I can support the club in their decision to not accept the riders as stated they missed the closing date?

Both arguements are valid, but which is right? Some trials have to have closing dates the SSDT and Scott to name but 2 as they are over subscribed and have to go to ballot? some clubs would accept a late entry, but is this unfair as they may as well not have a closing date in the regulations?

Maybe the solution to the weekend was to let them ride for a no award basis, but is that what the riders would be prepared to do?

[telecat]

At the Moment "Closing dates" are of little value. We don't have enough riders out there! I'd support a limit ON RIDERS but with the previso that until that limit is reached entries will be accepted even if it is with a "penalty" with regard to the entry fee.

[racey]

No brainer this one. As in most national events the club has to have a closing date in order to get the programme and relevant paperwork all prepared, and riders, especially those in with a shout of the championship have weeks and weeks in which to send in their entries.

If the club accepts late entries, then they are open to protests from other riders who could hold that club to ransome for breaking their own rules and the problems would then spiral out of control.

The club acted absolutely correct, end of......

Edited August 14, 2012 by racey

[gizza5]

No brainer this one. As in most national events the club has to have a closing date in order to get the programme and relevant paperwork all prepared, and riders, especially those in with a shout of the championship have weeks and weeks in which to send in their entries.

If the club accepts late entries, then they are open to protests from other riders who could hold that club to ransome for breaking their own rules and the problems would then spiral out of control.

The club acted absolutely correct, end of......

Yes true riders do have weeks to send their paperwork in, but as in life sometimes circumstances change and you maybe able to ride the particular weekend and not go to your Great Aunties birthday party after all?

As for the programme that can't be too much of a problem and the paperwork should be pretty much the same whoever rides or are you saying that clubs that accept late entries are breaking the rules?

As I said to accept the entries on a no award basis would eliminate any protests. I am not saying your wrong is this the rules for all BTC?

[nigel dabster]

i think the problem here is that they would not have gained anything by riding for no award and thats the sticking point for both parties.

[totalshell]

can of worms... you accept one late entry this year next year no one enters so you cancel event only to be deluged by folk saying 'i was going to make a late entry'

getting your entry in on time is as much of the event as the first section.. you would nt let folk miss out that part.. or would you if they rode no award..

[telecat]

Cannot agree with racey. The main problem I have found is that it can be difficult to find some Entry forms. You CAN send one "on spec" but many events have differing entry fees even within the same championship and getting them back can be problematic. In one case I entered my son for a Youth round at Scarborough. The entry when they got it was completely shredded along with the cheque. The club was extremely diligent and "held" and entry for us while I got a "New" cheque to them. However in some cases even finding out you have an entry is difficult and in some cases I have been setting things to go to find we hadn't got one. That's annoying and expensive.

Then there are circumstances such as one we found ourselves in where clubs sending out Postal invitations to Trials were getting them though to us but somewhere along the line the Email address had been sent out wrong. We got invited to half the Trials and had to enquire where the rest were. It wasn't until one of them replied that I realised what had happened and we nearly missed a few due to that.

[breagh]

Here's one.

A few years back I entered a Trial up North,I was a member of the club in question at the time.

A few days beforehand a friend phoned the club in question to offer to observe and would be travelling (about 100mls) with me.

The secy informed him I was not entered.

I enquired and was told that as the club didn't have my entry that was it.

I went up nevertheless with my bike hoping I would be offered a ride but to no avail and observed.

I must have been misguided in thinking being involved with Trials for over 30 years would cut any ice.

The entry turned up a few days later as I'd put the wrong stamp on it.

All I can say is that since then if it's not enter on the day I'm not interested with the odd exception.

Just to rub salt into the wound rumour has it a rider just tuned up on the day and the steward let him ride.

[pete_scorpa3]

Imagine taking hundreds of hours setting out a 40 section 35 mile road trial like our own Colmore cup and letting riders enter on the day.

The start venue booked, 13 land owners paid, 40 observers, 40 punch card markers, everything in place and..... 15 riders turn up.

The club would be £1000 or more out of pocket and would probably never run the event again.

[pindie]

They need a way of being able to register on line and do away with signing on after a set amount riders have paid so the event can run financially. You could pay and complete all the info on the way to a trial using your phone. Just charge extra?

I can see why they don't want loads of guys tunring up late with a fist full of cash, queing and getting in a huff because the event is starting but if it was all done before who cares. If your late = no ride or get a points penalty to start with.

They should be strict on start times not entries.

I was told I could not enter a trial without sending in an entry. I emailed the organiser I would not know till the night before if I could ride but they insisted on posting a paper form and cheque beforehand. Needless to say I was able to go but in the end could not due to no entry. That cost that club A. my money and B. the likelihood I'll be back for another event.

Another club I use is so on the money with "modern ways" they email everything (but can pay on the day) and you get the results that night at home with a beer.

It's time for uniformity and every club should have a web site where you can enter and pay in the 21st century. In return you get given a unique reference number (to your entry of as many riders you wish) that you either print and take with you or show them the email reply with it displyed on your phone as proof of entry and payment.

We must have IT bods on here who can do a template and be bathed in glory as being the one who modernised event running?

Come on you know who you are......

[pete_scorpa3]

I was trying to 'sit-on-the-fence' with this and remain impartial.....

They need a way of being able to register on line and do away with signing on after a set amount riders have paid so the event can run financially. You could pay and complete all the info on the way to a trial using your phone. Just charge extra?

What happens if you need 60 riders to break even and only 15 pre enter? People using thier phones on the way won't help the club decide if they need to cancel the trial.

I can see why they don't want loads of guys tunring up late with a fist full of cash, queing and getting in a huff because the event is starting but if it was all done before who cares. If your late = no ride or get a points penalty to start with.

If it's all done before the closing date, there's no problem anyway.

They should be strict on start times not entries.

How is that relevant to pre entering events?

I was told I could not enter a trial without sending in an entry. I emailed the organiser I would not know till the night before if I could ride but they insisted on posting a paper form and cheque beforehand.

A reasonable request I would have thought. If they make an exception for one rider, they will soon be making it for everyone.

Needless to say I was able to go but in the end could not due to no entry. That cost that club A. my money and B. the likelihood I'll be back for another event.

So because they asked you to pay up front (as laid down in the regs) and you declined, you won't be back for another event? It was your choice not to follow the organisers request, I don't see how you can complain.

Another club I use is so on the money with "modern ways" they email everything (but can pay on the day) and you get the results that night at home with a beer.

That's fair enough if they are prepared to take the chance that no one turns up. I wonder how much they pay for the venue? If they break even at 15 or 20 riders, then there's no major issue.

Imagine 100 'modern' riders emailing to say they are entering and then no one turns up, so the club looses money. What would you have them do then?

It's time for uniformity and every club should have a web site where you can enter and pay in the 21st century. In return you get given a unique reference number (to your entry of as many riders you wish) that you either print and take with you or show them the email reply with it displyed on your phone as proof of entry and payment.

Great idea, some clubs already have this facility and I'm sure it will become more common, but entries recieved after the closing date is still an issue.

If your email arrives after the closing date then you are still likely to be refused an entry just the same as any other system.

We must have IT bods on here who can do a template and be bathed in glory as being the one who modernised event running?

Remember, whilst many riders have smart phones and internet access, not all do. So even in this 'uniformed, 21st century, modern world' you mention, the club still has to provide a paper entry form plus a postal results service.

Come on you know who you are......

Yes, the unpaid volunteers who do this are also the ones applying for permits, setting out sections, observing and doing the results at the end of the day. Often without having ridden themselves!

Perhaps you could spare a thought for them next time you try to enter after the closing date, and when you are riding in the trial, and afterwards when you are having your 'beer at home' waiting for the results to appear on your screen.

Out club runs three trials a year that have closing dates and four that close at the start. I see the hard work that people put into these trials, the same faces are always the first to arrive and the last to leave after clearing up. If they need you to pre enter, then perhaps you should try to see it from their point of view and do so.

Remember, you could always turn up and offer to take over as Secretary and 'modernise' the way things are run. I guarantee you'd be more than welcome at any club if you offered.

[gizza5]

Imagine taking hundreds of hours setting out a 40 section 35 mile road trial like our own Colmore cup and letting riders enter on the day.

The start venue booked, 13 land owners paid, 40 observers, 40 punch card markers, everything in place and..... 15 riders turn up.

The club would be £1000 or more out of pocket and would probably never run the event again.

Good point Pete and we are not disputing that, but would you take a late entry after the closing date if someone phoned up?

Edited August 16, 2012 by gizza5

[pete_scorpa3]

Good point Pete and we are not disputing that, but would you take a late entry after the closing date if someone phoned up?

I've never been the Secretary for one of our 100 rider plus 'pre enter' trials, I only do the much smaller 40 to 60 rider 'enter on the day' events.

However, I believe our policy is to accept late entries (if there is still space) on a 'no award' basis.

I have seen 'No Entries on the Day' in the regs, and I suspect that means exactly that.

Incidentally, our small trials need roughly 25 riders to break even. The Nationals need about 70. It's very easy to loose £1000 running a big event.

Pete

[pindie]

I take all the points but I do think you have to pay the club so it remains solvent. If a rider fails to show that is there problem. Any business (which a trials club is in theory) needs the money coming in for cash flow. Without it your dead. A mix of methods for entry will always be the way ahead but I do think late entries should be allowed under strict methods and you should pay more if for one reason or another you can not comit prior to the event? I'd be happy to pay 30% extra for a late entry. I am also happy to be there before it starts to help where I can and I am also happy to tidy the course afterwards which I often do.

The sport element is exactly that but it is also a hobby and people should embrace it all. Has any club ever offered a scheme where if you observe one trial you can get a discount on your next entry? I still think the answer to club survival and land owner payments is getting the money in the first place - this is where tighter control is required.

Observing is also not the most exciting day out and I totally respect the observers and organisers time and efforts. They should be rewarded but only if this can be done without harming the club financially. If you had 15 observers getting a discount for the next event the short fall could be easily made up by the extra monies the late entries pay. The club may even end up better off as they will not only have more observers they will be getting more money.

It won't work for everyone I am sure but you only have to look at any event where you need up front payments and it can be done. I for one am not a fan of the rider who has entered way in advance with a paper entry and paid but then turns up late on the day and holds the whole show up as he was in bed drunk. How is that fair on any organiser when the organiser was probably setting up the course while the late rider was opening his first drink?

All I am saying is technology should be embraced but do not forget the essential principles of respect to club officials, observers and riders. Everyone needs to work together and as trials has an age range of very young to very senior I think various options should be available. Closing dates are closing dates and should be rigid to allow processing of paper entries but do not exclude people who are happy to pay more (which helps the club) if a way can be set up which does not cause hassle to organisers when were waiting for the drunk rider to turn up. IT allows this and clubs do have web sites so why not use it?

My own business has mobile swipe card machines so customers can pay anywhere in the UK as the work is done. The difference to cash flow and how you can operate is night and day by using this technology. Its basic business principles - a trials club has to operate as a business. Just a thought.

Edited August 16, 2012 by pindie

[pete_scorpa3]

We are starting to go round and round in circles now. But I'll have one more try.

If a club sets a closing date, I believe that it is only right and proper that riders respect their wishes and pre-enter.

If you don't pre-enter and then turn up on the day, you may get a ride, you may not. Any additional charge (or loss of points or whatever) is not relevant to the fact that the club has asked riders to enter in advance for a reason.

A rider who does not pre-enter take the chance that they will not be allowed to ride but should not hold that against the club. That rider also takes the chance that there were not enough entries to run the trial and that it was cancelled.

Naturally, everyone who's pre-entered will be informed, but the club has no obligation to inform people who are planning to turn up onthe day.

Talk of drunks and big queues and internet webs sites are going off topic and irrelevant to the original question.

Gizza asked if late entries should be allowed?

Edited August 16, 2012 by pete_scorpa3