Pre 65 Eligibility Ruling

[woody]

Hi Woody

I can't really comment on your niggles because we don't know the who's and what's etc, but I'll take your word for it, but if it was me i would not let it eat away at me, because if they have done something wrong and got away with it good luck to them. But when they get caught they won't be surprised if they are excluded. Also if you don't care about the rules or the trial why are you getting so wound up, it is really simple as B40rt said PRE65 DESIGN. So to your second point a cub if I had a cub as you have discribed above I wouldn't have a problem entering it as long as the mods, frame swaps were available in 64 or before, simple enter the bike as long as no lies are told what's the problem. the only thing I can see is that if you were to use a cub engine in a cub frame then it would have to be a swan neck but if you changed the frame from a cub one then it should be ok again I'm getting bored now, simple enter the bike.

The biggest problem is people reading things into it which are not there and creating problems when they should be keeping there mouths shut, riding and enjoying it!

The last thing is, it can't be that bad because out of say 500 entries ish for 180 places their are only 3 or 4 complaining about it???

Hi Paul - as above, definitely not wound up about it as it doesn't affect me, but as a point of principle, I just don't agree when people say there is no problem when clearly, bikes are in that shouldn't be - it's as simple as that, the situation is mis-represented on here. The people commenting are either ignoring the truth or they genuinely haven't noticed. I'm just saying how it is.

Anyway, as I said there is no way I'm naming any as it will achieve nothing positive for me and I've no gripe with any bike or rider. But I've a right to comment generally when I read comments that aren't 100% correct.

As for the number complaining, it depends who to and in what environment. There's an old adage that applies to many walks of life that says if you want to be part of the in-crowd, keep quiet, play their game and you'll be accepted - a reason some people stay publicly quiet perhaps

[big_red_bike]

Hi Charlie

Well the answer is in the question really, it has to be "pre65 design" therefore if the hubs are off Mr Whitton and are of pre65 design there's the answer, now if I put bultaco hubs in the wheels from 70s or 80s then I'm asking for trouble? and if your getting at originallity then that's another subject which can be discussed at great length another time!

If your otter frame is a replica of the original then I would not feel guilty of putting 63 or what date it was originally manufactured on the entry form as long as your happy it's PRE65 DESIGN again it's simple really, tick the boxes and answer the questions it's not to difficult even I managed it? so no lying as long as it's pre65 design, if I'm not sure I will always ask someone in the know like Alan Whitton or any of the Yorkshire classic lads only because I'm relatively new to the trials scene ecspecially the pre65 one.

Good luck with you entry.

Hi could you explain the pre 65 design i can not understand why billet alloy hubs are any more related to standard ones than bultaco,fantic etc

[old trials fanatic]

Good point. Obviously some people have a very selective view when it comes to their understanding of "pre65 design". We all know that prior to 1965 all bikes were designed with frames made out of T45 or lighter tubing and ALL hubs and yokes were designed to be made from billet alloy. Dont know what happened to the bikes i owned back then because for some odd reason the frames weighed a ton and the hubs seemed to be invariably made from steel as incidentally were the yokes and rims.

I must have been unlucky oh yes and unlike hondars250 who seems to think the ballot is for 180 riders most people know it's more like 80 if youre lucky.

Before the detractors all start just thought i'd state that i dont have any problem with lightweight frames and billet parts in fact i think theres something wrong with anybody who doesnt use them and i dont have a problem with up to 100 effectively seeded riders but i do get annoyed by people with their blinkers on who think the event and organisers are deitys and we should a be grateful and accept whatever unquestioningly. Anybody would think it's the vatican

[jon v8]

Been following this thread and taking on the various points of view..... Scotland is a long drive for me as it is for many others,lots of trials mates go up each year,I've not managed to get around to it yet....

But, I have to say all the arguing and bits and pieces that come back direct from the event make me feel its not worth bothering - is it really worth it ? I organise and ride trials for enjoyment - the love of the game.I dont think I'd want to be around at an event where people are cheating or certain riders bikes are being let by because of who they are.

Please forgive me if I have the wrong end of the stick,but I wonder if I'm alone with these thoughts.

[old trials fanatic]

Youre not alone.

[jack_the_lad]

Frames were not made out of T45 but the were made out of 531?

[hondars250]

Hi Woody

As I said before I don't want to know any of the riders names as it does not bother me who rides or not and on what, because my view is that the top riders would beat most of us if we where on monos? and as for your adage I'm certianly not in any in crowd or I would not be speaking my mind on here. A good saying is "it's far easier to be critical than correct" and a lot of that goes on here.

I feel sorry for the people like jon V8 having to read this, the best advice I can give is send an entry in, if you get a ride, go and enjoy one of the best trials in the UK, and when it's all over make your own mind up about the people who run it and ride it?

Hi OTF

Excuss me for being forward, but you must be a wind up merchant or a complete idiot. The things you say on here can be quite offensive, and you of all people should be aware of the work put in to run and organise a trial and then to be slagged off by the 3-4 moaners on here. Let me ask you a question do you know a 100% that the ballot is for 80 riders or less, I thought the only riders to not be in the ballot were last years winners? I don't think it's people wearing blinkers it's just people who don't bother to read something into something that's not there. It's easy to say " I'm not bother about light wieght frames etc etc BUT" also it seems easier for some people to discuss things, make opinions or make false statements looking at a computer screen and typing away without any consiquence but cannot speak face to face with anyone when at a trial.

Sorry if I've offended you but unlike you I am willing to discuss these matters face to face and not hide behind a computer screen.

What you've got to remember is that people see things differently, as for me when I did the Scottish 2 years ago, I seen it as a great trial with great people running it and riding in it, I'm not a pre65 guru so didn't notice any cheating etc and it leaves a bad taste when people like you seem to have a dig every year with the same old same old, very sad!

[danny b]

Seems to be a few bitter people out there, most of whom declare that they do not enter the event, so why try to drag it down ?

As I see it there are two issues

machine eligibility - The object is to try to keep the bikes looking as close to old bikes as possible. The horse has well and truly bolted, so it is generally accepted that parts made from exotic materials but look something like the originals are OK. Similarly billet yokes are accepted as it was technically possible for a bloke with a drill and a file to make a set back in the day. The organisers have two options, write a massive set of regs trying to cover all machines and all possible mods or keep it simple and say "pre 65 design". I would guess the reason for the A4 photo's is to give the organisers chance to challenge anything they are unhappy with before the ballot( assuming you have the good sense to send your entry in before the last minute).

Exclusion from the event- As far as i am aware the 5 riders were allowed to ride on a no award basis. This was because they had parts different to those declared on their entry. I understand this was a warning shot and riders doing the same again will not be allowed to ride.

As far as turning a blind eye to other bikes and allowing cheating, this is not the case, the bikes complied in terms of parts declared on the entry, but in the view of the machine examiner were pushing the envelope too far in terms of pre-65 design. These riders were told what they needed to do to bring their bikes back in line.

so in my opinion it is quite simple, use pattern parts in exotic materials so long as they resemble the original, don’t modify your frame beyond recognition, and ask the organisers if in doubt.

Edited November 1, 2012 by danny b

[hondars250]

Hi danny b

Well said absolutly spot on.

Hope I didn't sound biiter just really angry that some people just keep nit picking all the time.

I've just been told to read the girls allowed forum Sandra Gomez and that made my blood boil and it seems to be the same people all the time.

I cannot remember who said 20% of the people cause 80% of the problems? I think it was Perito ( spelling ??) or he came up with the 80-20 theory, but it's true here??

[greeves]

Not Perito hondars250 but Vilfredo Pareto, have a look to the man himself and his very sharp gaze thinking about how to raise a discussion...

[hondars250]

Hola

Thanks Javier that's the man, it's a long time since my college days couldn't quite remember his name.

[old trials fanatic]

Hi Woody

As I said before I don't want to know any of the riders names as it does not bother me who rides or not and on what, because my view is that the top riders would beat most of us if we where on monos? and as for your adage I'm certianly not in any in crowd or I would not be speaking my mind on here. A good saying is "it's far easier to be critical than correct" and a lot of that goes on here.

I feel sorry for the people like jon V8 having to read this, the best advice I can give is send an entry in, if you get a ride, go and enjoy one of the best trials in the UK, and when it's all over make your own mind up about the people who run it and ride it?

Hi OTF

Excuss me for being forward, but you must be a wind up merchant or a complete idiot. "I'm not the first but you wont be the first to accuse me of being the later that is youre perogative in a free society" The things you say on here can be quite offensive "get out more", and you of all people should be aware of the work put in to run and organise a trial and then to be slagged off by the 3-4 moaners on here. "week in week out broad shoulders cant take the heat etc etc" Let me ask you a question do you know a 100% that the ballot is for 80 riders or less," yes i do and if you were more involved than you obviously are so would you" I thought the only riders to not be in the ballot were last years winners? "plus class winners etc at the organisers discretion oh please get real" I don't think it's people wearing blinkers it's just people who don't bother to read something into something that's not there. It's easy to say " I'm not bother about light wieght frames etc etc BUT" also it seems easier for some people to discuss things, make opinions or make false statements looking at a computer screen and typing away without any consiquence but cannot speak face to face with anyone when at a trial. "have you ever been to one of our trials ? thought not if so you would KNOW i would be happy to discuss at great length with you"

Sorry if I've offended you but unlike you I am willing to discuss these matters face to face and not hide behind a computer screen. "see above and again get real"

What you've got to remember is that people see things differently, "isnt that why we have a forum?" as for me when I did the Scottish 2 years ago, I seen it as a great trial with great people running it and riding in it, I'm not a pre65 guru " so when EXACTLY DID I SAY I WAS?" so didn't notice any cheating "I have NEVER used the word cheating" etc and it leaves a bad taste when people like you seem to have a dig every year with the same old same old, very sad! "obviously you dont believe in the premise of free speech! see previous comments about doffing forelocks and the vatican".

Question if your quote is to be taken as the general view why oh why do we have a forum at all?

The five people excluded , which after all is why we are having this discussion, were caught pushing the envelope, one ridiculously so, but would have been welcome to ride at almost every "classic" trial for the other 363 days of the year. No prob they got caught their fault.i just feel that i wonder how anybody can submit their bike for entry and feel they will be judged eligable on the PUBLISHED reg as against the "whim" of whoever "scrutineers" (sic) the event.

Not that anybody will believe it but i think every serious "pre65", LOL, rider i.e. people who ride "pre65" week in week out, as against those who just ride the event as a one off , should have ridden it at least once in their trials life. All i would like is transparency and clarity accross the entire entry and even handedness in the application of the "rules" across the entire entry.

Some of you live in a very subservient "respect your betters" world. You are welcome to it. The event will always be oversubscribed so NOTHING said on here matters. They could say every bike must be red and people would comply .

Good luck to everybody who enters the lottery and i hope you have a great time. It is a great event but it's NOT the be all and end all of Classic trials in the UK.

Oh and before anybody says it neither are the events i organise.

Keep on tugging your forelock. LOL

Edited November 1, 2012 by old trials fanatic

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guys.

I am glad I am one of the twenty percent, OK.

But the few that feel that there blood is boiling over what The Few are saying are missing the point compleatly.

OK What gets my gander is that what happens, and what is aloud to pass as Pre 65 in this one trial is then passed down for the rest of the year as the norm for every other Pre 65 trial. It is then term Pre 65 that is wrong the term should not be used anymore for this trial.

I have on the bench at the moment the bike that won the 350 award in 2000, and is being rebuilt as it was ridden then. This bike had a Hubbo BSA frame that was built on the same frame jig as the Mick Mills frames, and was lent to the builder by the same. This bike had Four stud BSA forks fitted , and REH hubs. This bike today would not be accepted by the rules of today? So the goal posts have moved again.

I purchased the Faber frame in good faith, thinking that it was now OK for the event, but now find out that it may not be. So the goal posts have moved again.i have sent mails for conformation about this frame but have not had a reply.

I have now found a company in the West Country that build a frame for a Cub engine that is a copy of the super Cub frame. And it looks like a Bantam, but would this be allowed ?

I was taking a look at the 2010 Dave Thorpe Cub on pipeline , and this bike sported a Armac subframe, but this seems to be now allionated,? But I don't know as the person I asked has not given me an answer.

I will now submit an entry on the 1961 C 15T BSA and see what happens?

Regards Charlie.

[hondars250]

Question if your quote is to be taken as the general view why oh why do we have a forum at all?

The five people excluded , which after all is why we are having this discussion, were caught pushing the envelope, one ridiculously so, but would have been welcome to ride at almost every "classic" trial for the other 363 days of the year. No prob they got caught their fault.i just feel that i wonder how anybody can submit their bike for entry and feel they will be judged eligable on the PUBLISHED reg as against the "whim" of whoever "scrutineers" (sic) the event.

Not that anybody will believe it but i think every serious "pre65", LOL, rider i.e. people who ride "pre65" week in week out, as against those who just ride the event as a one off , should have ridden it at least once in their trials life. All i would like is transparency and clarity accross the entire entry and even handedness in the application of the "rules" across the entire entry.

Some of you live in a very subservient "respect your betters" world. You are welcome to it. The event will always be oversubscribed so NOTHING said on here matters. They could say every bike must be red and people would comply .

Good luck to everybody who enters the lottery and i hope you have a great time. It is a great event but it's NOT the be all and end all of Classic trials in the UK.

Oh and before anybody says it neither are the events i organise.

Keep on tugging your forelock. LOL

OTF

Well I think you must have had 2 or 3 glasses of the vino to many before replying Dutch courage eh!! and you have just confirmed that your not a wind up merchant?

I don't really know what your rant is must be the vino talking??

But if it's the 5 riders being excluded so what they lied on the entry form tough, I would not have even let them ride! so what was it exactly exclude for or are you just having a stab in the dark trying to ruffle a few feathers.

And yes I have been to your trials several times, next time I'll introduce myself and we will see if you can talk face to face but keep off the wine or what ever you drink just to keep it sensible.

This must be eating away at you, you must try to chill a bit.

If the riders who want to ride PRE65 in Scotland if they follow the rules set down there should be no issue at all, but if the decide to lie on the entry form that's their problem not mine or yours, and you will always get people who will have a little push to see how far or much they can get away with, it human nature.

Got to go must get out more! ha ha

[hondars250]

Hi Guys.

I am glad I am one of the twenty percent, OK.

But the few that feel that there blood is boiling over what The Few are saying are missing the point compleatly.

OK What gets my gander is that what happens, and what is aloud to pass as Pre 65 in this one trial is then passed down for the rest of the year as the norm for every other Pre 65 trial. It is then term Pre 65 that is wrong the term should not be used anymore for this trial.

I have on the bench at the moment the bike that won the 350 award in 2000, and is being rebuilt as it was ridden then. This bike had a Hubbo BSA frame that was built on the same frame jig as the Mick Mills frames, and was lent to the builder by the same. This bike had Four stud BSA forks fitted , and REH hubs. This bike today would not be accepted by the rules of today? So the goal posts have moved again.

I purchased the Faber frame in good faith, thinking that it was now OK for the event, but now find out that it may not be. So the goal posts have moved again.i have sent mails for conformation about this frame but have not had a reply.

I have now found a company in the West Country that build a frame for a Cub engine that is a copy of the super Cub frame. And it looks like a Bantam, but would this be allowed ?

I was taking a look at the 2010 Dave Thorpe Cub on pipeline , and this bike sported a Armac subframe, but this seems to be now allionated,? But I don't know as the person I asked has not given me an answer.

I will now submit an entry on the 1961 C 15T BSA and see what happens?

Regards Charlie.

Hi

Being in the 20% is nothing to be proud of really is it? I'm quite open minded, but you seem to be tared with the same brush as OTF small minded and a basic trouble maker on here because it seems to be only you 2 causing problems, or should I say inventing them, as of yet I have not seen any hard evidence just speculation of general rubbish. Are you also sure 100% that the Armac frame you saw was actually an armac because I've altered cub frames and they have been mistaken for other peoples frames including Armac could this have been done in the 60s?? we will never know.

It does not matter what's on your bench does it, because if you want to enter the Scottish PRE65 just do as I've already said look at what you've got/want to ride and if you answer yes to the questions, get it entered and best of luck to you and if you get in enjoy it for what it is, not what you want it to be.