Lol At The Fim

[nigel dabster]

Personally I welcome the return to no stop trials but would really like to see it as one part in a suite of changes. I feel too many WTC events are simulating an indoor trial outdoors. I feel the best rider in the world should be able to demonstrate a range of skills on a range of terrain in a range of conditions. I see this as preferable to being the best rider in the world at riding big grippy steps with no run up.

The changes I would like to see include:

• Introduction of a wider variety of terrain
  
• Extending the WTC season to 9-10 months rather than the 3-4 months of the 2012 season
  
• Employing more natural terrain and eliminating man made sections
  

As a package of changes this would mean the obstacles in sections become less extreme, the population of riders that can attempt them increases and the range of skills a rider demonstrates becomes broader.

I would not expect this to greatly increase the population of WTC riders, but I feel it would be more interesting and varied and likely put more riders in contention for podium places. I do believe that the best riders will, over a season, continue to win. Doug Lampkin won world championships under different sets of rules and I fully expect Toni Bou will do the same.

how many wtc's have you been to in the last couple of years neil?

[neils on wheels]

how many wtc's have you been to in the last couple of years neil?

I've been to Scotland, the Cumbria round & also to Spain. I'd go to more if I felt there was more variety in both the style of trial and the possible result.

Edited November 10, 2012 by neils on wheels

[fatbastard]

It's a pity they couldn't have both have some section marked for non stop riding up stream etc and others stop allowed with the big rock faces.

Some sections might suit one rider another section suit another make it interesting .

[ducati996]

It's a pity they couldn't have both have some section marked for non stop riding up stream etc and others stop allowed with the big rock faces.

Some sections might suit one rider another section suit another make it interesting .

Good point,bit of a variation it is WTC after all.

[wri5hty]

I don't think it would work in the same trial. At best make all rounds 2 day no stop sat, stop permitted sun. I would happily live with that if it stopped all the arguing. Sick of seeing the word STOP over the last 12 months. It should be put into the swear filters.

[axulsuv]

I don't think it would work in the same trial. At best make all rounds 2 day no stop sat, stop permitted sun. I would happily live with that if it stopped all the arguing. Sick of seeing the word STOP over the last 12 months. It should be put into the swear filters.

Now in world rounds I could live with that ... Combined score for both days , and save the best tricks for last ... That would be a show and evolve both styles at the same time. And the best would get better ...and the kids would still set down the x-box to watch and learn , 'cause the basics are still the basics , As Bernie said in his book you can learn control in a flat concrete lot . or something like that !

Glenn

[twinshocked]

Going no stop makes it less dynamic, less exciting and a lot less amazing to watch.

Oh right, that's why the stop fest that is American football is sooo much better to watch better than Rugby.

Edited November 10, 2012 by twinshocked

[essexukay]

This two day idea is a good one. I was planning on going to some world rounds next year until I found out they were going to be one day affairs. Now there is no way I am flying to Spain for one day of no stop. One more reason not to go. Well done FIM.

[nigel dabster]

I've been to Scotland, the Cumbria round & also to Spain. I'd go to more if I felt there was more variety in both the style of trial and the possible result.

Scotland was all big grippy rocks with massive steps and a circus?

Cumbria is the most manmade wtc that I have seen in the last 8 years.

Which spanish round as these vary greatly,andorra is very natural as was the rounds in Galicia.

I think to make sweeping statments that the wtc is this or that should be based on experience rather than prejudice, or altering the facts to suit your argument.

[nigel dabster]

This two day idea is a good one. I was planning on going to some world rounds next year until I found out they were going to be one day affairs. Now there is no way I am flying to Spain for one day of no stop. One more reason not to go. Well done FIM.

if you are keen to watch good trialing the rounds with the uem rounds on the saturday are usually worthwhile, also there are more brits at these aswell.

[nigel dabster]

Oh right, that's why the stop fest that is American football is sooo much better to watch better than Rugby.

With the section design generally the stop allowed rules which only allow 90 seconds in a section mean that very little time is spent standing still on the bike.

I can think of 3 or four sections at Nord vue which were so long and technical the biggest problem was getting through on time rather than difficulty.

If stop allowed is planned there is no boring time when the riders are still, its not one set of rules or another.

[nigel dabster]

Good point,bit of a variation it is WTC after all.

Good point but aren't most of the arguments fpr or against one set of rules or the other more pointing to section design and management/severity?

i dont care what rules but I bet not one extra bike is sold cos the wtc rules are changed one way then back again?

[baldilocks]

id rather see none of you watch a wtc. Go and ride somewhere, the sport needs paticipation. just watch the wtc on youtube and have a single event a year like cycling but without the drugs.

[ducati996]

Good point but aren't most of the arguments fpr or against one set of rules or the other more pointing to section design and management/severity?

i dont care what rules but I bet not one extra bike is sold cos the wtc rules are changed one way then back again?

Just thought it might be an idea to keep everybody happy,but i know which section i would watch at, stop allowed.

Agree,not one extra bike will be sold as a result of rule changes,they will have to wait for the economy to pick up for that.

[john collins]

I am going to have one go at this, not particularly to express my own opinion, but to try to get rid of myths and the ridiculous situation of somehow people thinking that they have some god given right to determine what happens at WC level, when they do not ride, do not go there but somehow feel they should be always consulted. Plus there was a question on another post about improving trials generally.

Further to this there seem to be dozens of posts wishing to expound how it should all be done, or how they would do it, and a few who actually fancy themselves as being the Guru for all things trials and have all the answers and often childish and naive opinions that we should all insist Trials appears after News at Ten each night, or that they should take Man U v Chelsea off the box and replace it with the highlights of the XYZ trial. Grow up.

More than this, and in the real World, if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. Obviously this does not apply to all. Many of posts are by people who are involved and put something back in. However, all too often we hear the moan “we should have been asked” ask the public, or listen to riders and so and so on.

Let me also point out that less than 33.3 % of riders from last years British Champ (all were sent to and some from previous year – approx 70- 80) replied.

Fact – the large majority wanted Stop allowed – end of. To the cretins who say we do not listen, read a bit more. There was never any intention of just running a No-Stop Championship in 2013.

The riders clearly wanted to ride Stop Allowed. There would be a Stop Allowed Championship

Obviously, the recent FIM decision had not been made, and in the real world that may of course demand some new thinking. Perhaps not. I do not know yet.

To the post who in his dreams suggests that the FIM somehow persuaded the ACU to No-Stop on their behalf - nothing could be further from truth. End of – dream on.

All this was before FIM had announced any decision and of course as someone has said, many in the past believed that BC rules should mirror FIM rules, and have for many years. There was criticism last year that this was not case i.e. British rules out of synch with FIM – valid criticism

It therefore must be logical that those who expounded that view will now wish it to be same i.e. BC mirrors FIM?

True – we had no real idea which way FIM would go, and in order to keep options open we intended to go with a Stop Allowed and a No-Stop series. This may or may not remain case. The two Championship idea did not seem popular to many at the time.

Now, I have read many times about people being asked for opinion, people telling others how it should all be done. Many people believe they should personally be consulted on how it should all work, some even ( probably genuinely and sincerely) believe they should be able to decide, BUT then often fail to realise that they make little or no effort to get involved other than tap on the computer keys or play about with a phone

People love surveys ( as long as they require no action on their part other than an answer) Humour me and try mine

I would like to know from all who have posted , in 2012 Did you:

1) Observe at a Trial

2) Be Clerk of Course at a Trial ( or even Assistant C/Course)

3) Be Secretary of Meeting

4) Help put sticks in ( and I do not mean turn up just before start and offer opinion, I mean actually turn up beforehand)

5) Turn out prior to event for a work party to help, trim, clear etc

6) Turn out and put up route marking or road marking prior to the event

7) Go and knock on landowners door and try to get permission to use land ( the hardest one)

8) Turn up at a Centre or Club Trials Forum or some such

Now if you can answer Yes to just one of above, ( and many of us can answer Yes to all) then you are part of solution. If you cannot answer Yes to any then you are part of problem.

Do not harp on about rules, regulations and what others should do. You are letting the sport which you profess to love down. Forget all the rollocks about being busy, family commitments, needing to practice every spare minute to be next World Champion that applies to everyone. You are not more important than anyone else.

Even on this latest thread, there are some really good sensible ideas, There are good posts, even if we cannot all agree. BUT that is what they will remain, posts on a Web site or on a phone, and will achieve very little until people start to get actively involved.

If you cannot answer Yes to any of above – fair enough, but make a resolution for 2013 that you are going to do at LEAST one. Then you will be a contributor and frankly if enough do it, it will have more effect on Trials than any World or British Championship rule change will ever ever have - a theme I will return to.

Moving back to the No-Stop debate, and really emphasising what I mention above:

There was clearly a strong view even from the contributors to our sport (i.e. not the “No to every question above) that they would like a return to the Stop Allowed BC. Fair enough, valid point and certainly far more valid in past as now riders had tried it, observers had observed it and organisers had organised it (the No brigade had done sod all)

BUT BUT BUT, as I have said in previous posts – those who wanted it DID NOT come forward in any number to offer to run a round.

This is why the seven points above are so important. It is all very well us all ranting on about rules and Championships. We can have a Championship with completely different sets of rules than has ever been tried (Spain have experimented quite a bit) BUT someone has to run them

If the hard working people in a Club favour No-Stop – and I would agree there may be a tendency for them to be shall we say slightly older and looking back to past ( rightly or wrongly) then it is obvious that this will be their view and this is what they will most want to run

Conversely, if the hard working people in a Club favour Stop-Allowed – and I would agree that there may be a tendency for them to be shall we say slightly younger and not perhaps experienced the 60/70’s etc) then it is obvious that this may be what they want to run. This is why we have TSR 22A and TSR 22B in the book, and I am sure this will continue.

We have to throw in many other factors of course, but the point remains that those actually running events will always have a greater influence than those just wishing to tell people how to do so? It is not rocket science. So , in answer to those who deem themselves the saviour of all things trials – just stop talking/posting twittering and f…facing and do what all other on FIM, ACU , SACU , AMCA, YMSA and Uncle Tom Cobbly and all have done – just start to do it.

I have mentioned before that lots of posts referred to what others should do, how they should run the rounds, where they should run round etc. I suggested that this was all valid, regardless of which rules they preferred, just work with your club and apply to run a BC under whichever rules float your boat.

Fact: As I have said before, talk is cheap, and those applications did not arrive. So a case of “Do as I say not as I do”

Next : just for a while can we divert away from rules and just as a matter of conjecture look at the situation?

Fact: Trials bikes sales are not great at moment. In fact they are terrible across the spectrum

Who cares? Well we will. If it becomes less than viable to produce trials bikes, there is a possibility some Manufacturers will cease. For many years there have only been a small number of them, and it is good to see some new ones dip toes in water and good luck to them. BUT if these manufactures do diminish so will our choice and if you believe the few that then have the monopoly will not be able to increase prices dramatically so be it. I do not. Trials bike could become an extremely expensive item, merely because they would be made in small numbers for a very specialised marked. This happened with many other non motorcycling things.

The result then tends to be a very very specialised sport which is even more expensive to compete in at any level than it is now.

Do we really care that much about manufacturers? Well perhaps not. They have brought some economic trouble on themselves with larger and larger wagons, more and more minders and mechanics and so on. But, is their money after all and they can spend it as they think fit – but when sales fall off the cliff, they are bound to be looking for solutions- or laying blame. The Stop or No-Stop rule may be just one thing to look at.

It cannot be just co-incidence that at recent Dirt Bike show I think all the UK Importers had Enduro/ Trail type machines in stand? Why? Were they suddenly Enduro/Trail enthusisiats ? No, they were trying to expand their range to try to have additional income streams from just trials bikes.

Next – The rules take a hit – whatever you view. Some look back fondly to the good old days when thousands of trial bikes were sold in UK alone. Perhaps/ Probably this is through rose coloured spectacles. But we all do it in many things in life. (Pre breathalyser we always enjoyed a few pints on way home from trial, it was great)

Is it as simple as just changing a set of rules and seeing everyone flood back to Trials? Not a chance. But it MAY be one tool in the toolbox BECAUSE – the most important word is PARTICIPATION. Not Stop Allowed, Not No-Stop – PARTICIPATION

So what affects this? Lots of things as well as rules.

Cost of machines – they ain’t cheap. Cost of spares? Has helped no-one.

Look at the price of a trials rear mudguard, con rod, piston. Then go on EBay and see what you can get same items for if you had MX or Enduro?

True, the MX items are “pattern” but if the quality of the mudguard is good – who cares stuff?

Look at a rear trials tyre – about £80. Look at the price of a reasonable/ usable MX one?

So are we being ripped off? Not necessarily so. It is matter of scale and numbers. MX and Enduro have very large number of bikes across the globe. Trials do not. It therefore follows that someone like Acerbis or Poli -Sport can, and do produce things like plastics, Prox things like pistons etc, as there is a big market. That market is just not there for Trials so there are relatively few pattern suppliers for many things. However, the Manufactures could have done a lot more. Easy to blame rules – should they have not at least tried to make some often used spares (linkage bearings for example) more affordable. There will be engineering bods reading these posts, and I am sure you will agree that the price of some items like steel bushes etc are vastly inflated?

Additionally, a chap who buys the new breed of Trial/Trail bike – most Trials manufactures have them now, can get a fair bit of use. He can ride it to work or road runs to chip shop, he can trail ride, and he can compete in low key or not so low key trials. I know this as I do it.

With a trials bike, he can ride trials or practice – that is about it. So again we are in a much specialised market. All OK, but has to be considered when we keep knocking Importers and Manufacturers, although certainly they need a bit of knocking when year on year they have churned out bikes with same old fault and looked like treating us with contempt with faulty ignitions, faulty clutches etc on bikes which cost a lot, but succumb very quickly, often when just in the shed!

It is understandable that the above are looking for a solution, although we would probably all agree that a rule change may not be the answer, but it MAY be part of it.

That moves us back to my participation theme. I am fully aware that the World Championship should be the pinnacle of our sport. No question. I am fully aware that TV, PR, etc should enhance all this, and show it as a dynamic sort which will get youngsters queuing up to take part. Fair enough, but does it really? Does it always do this in other sports that get good exposure?

We would have to blind to have not noticed that after success of cyclists in Olympics and Tour of France, there was certainly a hell of a lot more cyclists out on roads. This then is a clear indication of top end exposure hugely helping bottom end participation. No question. Probably same for Athletics etc. It is not always the case however. After years in doldrums, the Welsh rugby team gained a lot of success such as Six Nations in recent years; Rugby is almost a religion in Wales. Has it helped the standard and participation below? There was a programme on TV this week showing that at Regional level; things are not good at all. And certainly schools Rugby have not benefited that much? I drink in my local rugby Club; I am starting to think if I go there more than twice a week I will be picked for first 15! Things are on the floor. Plenty of TV coverage and PR for Rugby, Cardiff is a mad and shrine house on International days – but the sport?

I did a lot of Athletics in my Youth and College days at reasonably high levels. Many of you will also have been active in School Track and Field. Think back. If you competed for school / college or local harriers etc, which facet had least competitors? i.e. least PARTICAPNTS. Answer – Pole Vault.

Why? Certainly before the advent of the bendy fibre glass poles, it was/is a very much specialised discipline, and it was very difficult to master the skill needed. The slow kids can run a 100yds, they can run and jump into the sand – but pole vault – too specialised for the majority?

In 60/70/80’s Pony Clubs and riding were immensely popular. Lots of youngsters managed to obtain a Pony. If you ever visited, you would see everything from low key jumping (or not so low) to the sack race. You rarely saw Dressage, even with a bunch of rag tag ponies, it would have been safe, slow and disciplined. Why not, it is much specialised. Needs practice/ training/ patience and high skill levels. Easier to move on to something else?

Of course I generalise. But you get the idea. How many of us know guys who have bought a Trials bike and packed in after first year (or less I know probably hundreds as I have sold them the things for 43 years) Is it because it was not dynamic? Is it because the sections were too easy for them, or they did not see themselves on TV? Could it possibly be because they got frustrated with lack of progress and mastering the skill needed?

So, back to participation again. For several years there have been dynamic trials at World level. Personally I enjoy watching this far more than watching No – Stop. But, has it helped in participation across the sport? I am not that sure, and I am not sure if armchair sport actually helps us. There are no football teams on a Saturday morning on the four park pitches close to me, there used to be loads.

Those who constantly harp on about PR and TV etc. The World Championship of recent years has vastly improved in such matters. We watch Indoor and Outdoor trials. We marvel at the skills of Toni Bou etc I love it. BUT has it actually helped to increase participation? Perhaps it has? Possibly without it things would be worse. Things like the economic situation across them globe and especially Europe cannot be ignored , it is multi pronged problem/

These things however apply to other disciplines. I am very involved in the European Enduro Championship. We have entries of about 100-150 each round in 2011. I was dreading the economic effect on 2012. Round one in Italy there were well over 200 and not that many Italians. We cannot just look at the economics. We have to look wider.

Is there also just the faint possibility, as someone else has suggested that it becomes too far off the radar for normal beings? I think us all (even most ardent No-Stop fan) need to admire the skills that these top riders have honed. Same actually applies at BC level and even below. They have practiced them hour after hour and event after event, not only at World or National Championship level but also for Centre level in many cases. It is easy to knock all this, but many of us either did not have ability or were not dedicated to do it. But that in some ways matters not. If a chap buys a trials bike, and wants to compete, and for any reason does not master the skills needed for a reasonable shot at the sport, there is a very big danger he packs it all in. This is a fact

The fact that Tony Bou and Adam Gaga are super on TV is all very well for a while, but eventually he realises that the sport is just out of his reach to be even reasonably competitive, so he moves on, often to Enduro/Cross Country (check the names out in results in page) I know many who tried trials for about 6 to 8 months and them sold bike. They are almost all still competing in Enduro.

This is the problem, and this is what hinders participation. Once a sport gets out of the ability range of the majority, it starts to flounder. I realise not many like this fact, but it is true. Very specialised sports can certainly exist but all too often there are relatively small numbers.

For sure, it is possible to work with small numbers and this should not really be a problem at World level, and this has been situation for many years. Frankly it does not worry me a jot if there are only a limited number of participants in top class. There are only two in a World boxing contest?

Ideally, what happens at World level should enhance our sport, encourage young riders to aim for that level and certainly for me that has what it has done for many years. But is it that wrong to want to try something else? Will the top riders now not still earn a wage? Will they take up golf? Why some just so adamant nothing are different should at least be tried?

Will there be problems? Yes there will. Will No-Stop see rides flooding back to the sport – Absolutely not, at least not in the short term. BUT any sport or any individuals who are not prepared to ever try anything different will just be encouraging stagnation.

There is a view that if we believe that things should filter down from top and influence all below with a dynamic sport, it must also be logical to consider that things could filter up. i.e. the sport is more achievable to more at the bottom, and then as they become better or achieve excellence the top riders become more noticeable. Many sports developed because lots of people were participating at a low level, and as the numbers grew more and more, more and more competitions sprang up and so it went on until there were National and then World Championship to cater for best. When skateboards became a popular pastime, local authorities staring building ramps in parks etc at a great rate of knots. I am hopeful that the advent of electric bikes will prove a boost to our sport. Again - more participation

Would top riders in a sport with say 50,000 participants be more prominent than in same sport with?

5,000 participants? Surely it is easier to demand more TV time etc for a sport which has a huge following?

There are many sports which would not be regarded as particularly spectator friendly but have a huge participation base. Why do we also associate the number watching a sport more important than the numbers taking part?

If we look the hugely popular Pre65 and more recently Twin shock scene, why are their numbers strong – very strong in Spain when modern trials are floundering? Is it because they are all enthusiastic about old bikes – is it hell. Some are of course, but others sell a modern bike, buy a twin shock and then find they can enjoy the sport. It is not the bike, it is not the rules, it is the fact that the sections are easier, more enjoyable and within ability ranges. All too often this was not the case when they rode in a normal trail. Look at the modern classes in Normandale. Those riders are there because the sections are generally achievable. We are all too blame (at least those who are doers).

The rules probably have sod all to do with it. It is actually always been about the sections and where the sticks are placed. Probably all the No-Stop rules will achieve is having and influence on this. But if that gets more people back to trials is it not worth a try? At any level. It is ridiculous to even think that because FIM have gone back to No-Stop we can all leap on a bike and tootle up a brook. It will still be too difficult for most BUT may look more in relation to what riders can ride, week in and week out. They may all believe they can improve riding a stream or gully. Many know there is no chance of ever getting up a huge step. It is a matter of perception.

I rode in a low key trial yesterday. Stop Allowed. Excellent trial and the rules actually made no difference. The person who put the markers in had catered for the majority. I had no desire to ride No-Stop. I rarely have BUT I do have a desire (as do most other riders) to have an enjoyable day out that allows us participate at our level and our ability range.

This is the crux of the matter, and I suppose the real intention of No-Stop decisions of late is to try to influence the section severity. If we could get the section severity correct in first place we would not need No-Stop rules.

We all have to admit that far too often we have failed to, achieve this. Ii is not an exact science, it is a difficult one.

Next: a person who takes up a sport (and do not be fooled into thinking they are all youngsters – opposite may be true) actually wants to participate in that sport or pastime. They are not necessarily just interested in competing on a Sunday. They may wish to participate on a weekday evening or if they can finish work early. Have a look at the runners out training, the people in a pool or gym mid week, cyclists. The activity prior to an event is enjoyable for them it can also be socially rewarding

Trials? read the TC posts about many of us trying to find somewhere to ride, years ago we could all sneak a piece of land to ride on. Those days have gone. Take a look in back of TMX, lots of MX and Enduro tracks for practice. How many Trials ones can you find? Finding somewhere to ride is a bit like looking for Holy Grail. Nothing to do with rules, just another problem

In fact that, finding a venue and getting people to actually put the work in to run events is the real problem. It will eventually make Trials marking rules fade into insignificance

The biggest problem we will face (as well as finding mugs to do the work) will be LAND. This will be the problem. Rant and rave all you like about Stop or No Stop, we are all burying our heads in sand and being diverted from the real issues. One rule or 10 rules – no venues – no Trials – end of.

So, rant on all you like about one set of rules or another, blame all those who are out of touch ( but who are actually one hell of a lot more in touch than many posters) but soon we all have to wake up to the real problems and try to solve a few of them

The FIM I think are trying to close the gap between elite and mortals. Will it work – I do not know – but neither do any of you yet. There is no easy answer. It will never be a case of just all the old chestnuts such as TV, PR etc. These are all important, but too many people just hang their hat on them and use them as an excuse for not doing much . Work together, find some venues, and double the number of Trials run in the UK, regardless of rules THEN you will quickly see a big difference

Edited November 11, 2012 by john collins