Lol At The Fim

[jandyb]

Cabestany obviously thinks this is no-stop

The news have reached the north too.. :-) We in Norway havent experienced non stop for many years and wonder how it works. Was just watching this video. If non stop means that it is not allowed to stop, this ride would give more than one fiver in my opinion?? Or have I missed something??

-JAn

[baldilocks]

The news have reached the north too.. :-) We in Norway havent experienced non stop for many years and wonder how it works. Was just watching this video. If non stop means that it is not allowed to stop, this ride would give more than one fiver in my opinion?? Or have I missed something??

-JAn

I think giving a five for that ride is harsh.

What I dont get, which I would like dabster and others to explain, is why we think this is a five but when under stop permitted a rider goes back six inches nobody awards a five and thats ok ? Its like under no stop it has to be zero tolerance but we ignore the fact the observing under stop permitted is rather slack. I think this is just people fooling themselves that stop permitted observing is sound or in some way better / easier ? I dont think it is, under both rules its subjective.

[jandyb]

I think giving a five for that ride is harsh.

What I dont get, which I would like dabster and others to explain, is why we think this is a five but when under stop permitted a rider goes back six inches nobody awards a five and thats ok ? Its like under no stop it has to be zero tolerance but we ignore the fact the observing under stop permitted is rather slack. I think this is just people fooling themselves that stop permitted observing is sound or in some way better / easier ? I dont think it is, under both rules its subjective.

I see what you mean. Backing isnt allowed now, but all riders do. On purpose with no consequence. So Cabestanys bike definitly stands still several times in this video. I wouldnt give five either. So its OK to stand still in a non stop trial. For how long? 0,1 sek? 0,5 sek? 1 sek?

I dont know. Thats the reason I ask You that already have non stop trials..

-Jan

[old trials fanatic]

I think giving a five for that ride is harsh.

What I dont get, which I would like dabster and others to explain, is why we think this is a five but when under stop permitted a rider goes back six inches nobody awards a five and thats ok ? Its like under no stop it has to be zero tolerance but we ignore the fact the observing under stop permitted is rather slack. I think this is just people fooling themselves that stop permitted observing is sound or in some way better / easier ? I dont think it is, under both rules its subjective.

i wouldnt have given him a five either. It does seem very strange how the proponents of stop allowed turn a blind eye to rule infringements, rolling back etc, but apply zero tolerence to non stop i.e. an unperceptable micro millisecond or less must have been a stop even though i'm not sure without slow motion frame by frame replay. Very strange.

[nigel dabster]

I think giving a five for that ride is harsh.

This is the problem, and lets not forget that marking stop allowed has been far from perfect, you say "harsh" and it would be so but it would be possible, and thats the problem here and now that with such a big change it gets too subjective.

I observed at an S3 round and marked the experts differently from the clubman as there routes within the one section were quite different. I found it very hard and stressful as many were stopping for fractions then a bit longer then longer, where do you draw the line.

in no way is this saying that stop allowed shouldnt mark better, just that a change will cause many arguments surely?

[baldilocks]

This is the problem, and lets not forget that marking stop allowed has been far from perfect, you say "harsh" and it would be so but it would be possible, and thats the problem here and now that with such a big change it gets too subjective.

I observed at an S3 round and marked the experts differently from the clubman as there routes within the one section were quite different. I found it very hard and stressful as many were stopping for fractions then a bit longer then longer, where do you draw the line.

in no way is this saying that stop allowed shouldnt mark better, just that a change will cause many arguments surely?

ok the change will cause arguments but riders were arguing under the existing rules ? At Nord Vue riders claimed they were out of the section when the whistle went but they were a good six feet short ! or being docked a five for the minder grabbing the bike and letting go again or the rider knocking a flag out.

Beyond a certain level riders seem to argue regardless of the rules, its not a reason not to change things.

[jandyb]

ok the change will cause arguments but riders were arguing under the existing rules ? At Nord Vue riders claimed they were out of the section when the whistle went but they were a good six feet short ! or being docked a five for the minder grabbing the bike and letting go again or the rider knocking a flag out.

Beyond a certain level riders seem to argue regardless of the rules, its not a reason not to change things.

So the fact that we are arguing about the existing rules is an argument for making another impossible rule?? I dont get that?

Deciding if you are in or out a section are pretty easy. You are either in or out. Should be as easy to decide stopping to. Either you stopped or your not. I see Cabestany stop in the video...

Dont know what you practiced in UK. In Norway we had a rule for touching markers. It was allowed to bend the markers that much, but too much was a fiver. Impossible to judge. Now its a fiver for touching. Eather you touched it or you dont. Harsh sometimes, but much easyer to judge.

And btw.. I can answer Yes on all the questions earlyer in this thread. In addition to participate myself.

-Jan

[baldilocks]

No Jan what I am trying to get across is neither set of rules is perfect. stop permitted produces arguement and discussion so as a rational sensible group of people we should not take the view that only no stop is difficult to observe. Im not too concerned about the wtc surviving but i do want the sport to survive.

And seen as you mentioned it i can answer yes to 7 out of 8 of Johns questions. Have a look at the trials review thread Alwinton 2 day to see what i was doing on Sunday .

[ducati996]

Ducati 996 agree’s with much of what I say – but decided to give me a lesson in what I should and should not know about his Centre and Club which I should be familiar with?

I have no problem with any of that, if it were accurate , and once more not just jumping on a bandwagon in front of a keyboard - which is always my first reason for complaint in first place.

Unfortunately once more his views lose validity, as once more he tends to get things out of perspective and decides to use innuendo ( lie the FIM & ACU Gods) rather than facts or truth?

Some facts:

We belong to the WSW Centre which you are probably familiar with -

Well Yes – just a bit.

West South Centre Sec for about 20 years – until ACU work forced us to “ beg” past Centre Sec to re- take over- as there were no long queues , and thankfully he took over

W/S.W Vice President. Organiser of every Trials licencing seminar there has ever be in order to ensure we had the hard working souls we require to actually put on events instead of just talk. Involved every in only WSW British Adult Championship we run – our club believes bringing a Brit Champ to this area helps inspire young riders along very lines many talk about. Observe at afore said trial –EVERY year , never ever just take up official task with badge, more important to Observe. It is getting help & land to run such a Brit Trials that is our problem , not the marking rules.

One of early members of Carmarthen Club – which eventually became to V/Towy – to which he alludes.

Organiser of many dozens of WSW Trials – Clerk of Course/ Sec of Meeting/ Putting in sticks/finding the land. Doubt if there has been many years over last 30 when I have not organised at least 1 Centre trial ( usually more until recent ACU work curtailed it) Some years have organised many trials lock stock and barrel. I will not go on – but if Ducati does not actually know what goes on in his own Centre, he should not be so eager to quote from it.

I think it just indicates the very points I previously made ie easy to post views – not so easy to get involved at Club/Centre level,

As you would know it is a fairly large Centre : No it is not – it is the smallest Centre in the UK and has been for about 30 years if not more. It has the smallest number of active Trials clubs in UK. Why – because of the very points I keep making – people want to talk instead of getting involved. The WSW Clubs have the same few workers year after year . In the last VOT trial there were about 50% of the Observers of approx pensionable age. I suspect they also did a lot more work.

Worry about what FIM or ACU does is fine – worry about helpers in own club would be more beneficial.

Ducati wants us all , or in particular me to to sort out problems for him - when he does nowt

Why? Does s he think I am sort of servant or employee of him or his ilk?

In Centre we have about 4 Youth C riders - Not correct , there are more, but many have decided not to compete. One of the reasons is there is not enough events for them – and the one of reasons for this is that too many people are prepared to just on backsides and not put events on – or rely on some other “ gentleman” to do it for them – and moan about not receiving any help? What help is required that you cannot provide for yourself?

Youth C & D in Welsh Championship: Yes – the entry in that Championship is low , and Yes it needs looking at – but why do you expect me to do something about it? I attend every Welsh MotorCycle Trials forum I can – and have not missed many over years , but I am not involved in Welsh Championships any more, other than an attendee to try to show support for those who are making an effort to actually do something. I have just looked at the minutes from the early one this year( when rules/policy etc is set) – where the hard working attendees met to try to do something about such matters - You are not shown on the attendance list – did you go? Or was it down to someone else again? Perhaps they missed your name? There has been one since , if you went to that – great you are making an effort to do something about the Youth sport – which is obviously close to your heart . If you did not go however – it is you that are letting that side of sport down.

As for having an active role in a club and going to centre meetings to try and sort something out which should have been sorted yrs ago i dont need to when i can speak to the man himself on here.

If you read how stupid that sounds – you probably would not have written it. No need for you to get involved – as people should have done it for you years ago - that is just to pathetic for comment

You can speak to the man himself on here ? - Why an earth will telling me your woes about Youth C&D in your area achieve anything when I have put a lifetimes hard work into that area and you cannot be bothered to get off you’re a… and do anything or attend anything? I only post on this forum to try to explain to others the thought process that goes into may things and how it all occur – I certainly do not need to or am obliged to , and certainly dross like this posts will incline me not to bother. Criticism is fine – untruth is not.

Your own Club were awarded a C&D British Champ least year, they are awarded one this year - is it not a good idea that the ACU were prepared to look further afield and not just go to the same old organisers?

In your own Clubs trial on Saturday - there were 9 Observers – were you one of them ? If not why not?

Of course if you were Observing - I take my hat off to you and thank you ( but I would have already done that as I certainly thanked every Observer after I rode section for last time) . I make it 9 Observers, I can presume you were not one of the 3 from outside the Club ( inc a C & D parent) you were certainly not one of the 3 hard working long standing club members( or you would not have been talking so much nonsense). However you may have been one of the other two gentlemen – and if so I really do genuinely applaud you as you have fulfilled my 1 to 8 initial survey . Just let us know , and if you were – I will personally run a C& D trial of quality in the start of 2013 at which you will be welcome. It will not rely on numbers to be viable – it will be for C&D riders , regardless of how many turn up. It will run if there 2 or 40. There will be good riders there to coach and adice and help even if I have to go and fetch them myself.

All the Trials ( except Trail bike/ Twinshock) in WSW have been Stop Allowed – so it mesmerises me why what happens at WC level has an effect on this. They have been Stop Allowed for many years - so if the C&D class low and it is) - why are the rules to blame? Fortunately – the section plotters in our Centre do a brilliant job, and the severity of sections are spot on for those who ride. True we are not catering for future World Champions, we cater in the main for what we have. The Stop , No-Stop argument has very little relevance, and if the section severity is correct – it has little relevance in many Centres. It is all about putting the sticks in.

If you want to know what is to blame – I will tell you . Not enough suitable events for C&D. Too often the sections throughout being far too hard – with SOME pushy parents more interested in trying to turn offspring into World Champions than letting them ride within their capabilities and enjoy themselves.

Have you included them in any trials you have run? I have.

Why do you not “ get involved” and actually run say just one next year – and I mean run it – not just talk about it , or expect others to sort it out. There is only 1 reason why there are not 6 more C&D or specific Youth events in W SW , not enough people prepared to get involved and run them..

I feel fed up and have got to the point where i dont care who i upset or offend and that includes you Mr Collins.

Yes , that is obvious, it is far easier to offend or upset people than actually do something. It is easier to spout inaccuracies rather than take time to find out. It is fare easier of accusing others of doing nothing when nothing could be further from truth.

My initial post was aimed at a very basic concept. The concern about rules is not the main problem we are facing. The problem is the same few people are doing the work, finding the venues and running the events. WC and British Championship rules are never ever going to solve these problems and are just a diversion from what we all need to be doing.

OK :]

[ducati996]

Ducati 996"In the 2 yrs that we have been doing trials,we have found it very difficult with very little help as a result i feel fed up and have got to the point where i dont care who i upset or offend and that includes you Mr Collins".

WSW has an excellent support structure through the Project 2000 training and coaching set up - this helps all riders to progress and enjoy the sport more and is all done on a voluntary basis. Not sure if you have been to one but to say nothing is done in this centre to support riders is incorrect.

Jimmy,open you're eyes or put you're glasses on and read what i said "found it very difficult with very little help" i did not say nothing is done to support riders,you are twisting it,as for Project 2000...yes we have done it.

[jimmyl]

Jimmy,open you're eyes or put you're glasses on and read what i said "found it very difficult with very little help" i did not say nothing is done to support riders,you are twisting it,as for Project 2000...yes we have done it.

I think WSW is very lucky to have a structure like Project 2000 and probably as good as anything else in the country for helping to get new riders into the sport - hire bikes, clothing, cheap instruction, free advice etc. However nothing is perfect so any suggestions as to specific weaknesses that you have found can try to be addressed either by the centre, the clubs or Project 2000directly. The idea of conducted trials before B grades has widely been adopted by the clubs (and thanks go to the few that organise these) and recently there have been some dead easy trials this year etc.Having been involved in the sport for many years we may take things for granted that the newbie finds to be a barrier however I like to think the WSW centre is a small and friendly one and we are all willing to help where we can. We have centre board this Weds and trials forum next Weds if you have any suggestions.

[jayt]

Why the FIM decided there was a need to take the top level of this incredible sport back to the ole days is beyond me.

The skills have advanced far greater than any other motorcycle sport that is contested. The machinery is top notch, joe average can buy a similar bike to that rode in the top level of competition. Let the best in the world do it in the manner they have been raised and trained.

If the club level wants to change it up, by all means go ahead.

If this sport had existed as no stop all these years, there is NO WAY the skills would have progressed to the level they have.

Edited November 14, 2012 by jayt

[axulsuv]

But he has not done much for youth trials

Are you talking about me or Mr Belair ? Pretty Ballsy either way , as you know neither one of us !!! Nor of what we do ...

[nigel dabster]

What worries me most is that it is impossible to disagree that the state of the WTC and more importantly Trials in most araes and countries is in crisis, and while it is the FIM are fiddling at the edges instead of banging heads together and getting some of the issues addressed.

I would respectively suggest that any rule change should have required some kind of consultation with the members? Isnt the ACU an affiliate member and who was it from the UK that agreed with the change? The ACU is for the benefit of the registered riders and in this case the few who do the wtc at all levels were they consulted?

When someone asks for something, like the manufacturers with no stop, I would say "what are you dong aswell"? Where is the starter bike like the ty80 was, cant you manufacturers get together and produce a loss leader starter bike so we can get the youths interested in the sport?

Whats happened to the entries they are low at top level, why did people like Gomez Gibert and british lads stop going? Cost? Right as the fim we will provide a service to get bikes with our"logistics partner" DHL (yes this bits true) to get the euro s bikes to usa japan aus or whereever. Also we will negotiate a reduced airfare to these to MAKE IT POSSIBLE FOR RIDERS TO GET THERE AT A PRICE THEY CAN AFFORD!!

Also the fim are going to reduce the costs they require the organiseres to pay and then subsidise the current entry costs (yes they have to pay to enter a wtc despite an entrance fee) again to make it possible to enable more to compete.

Severity will be strictly enforced by pasquet who will ensure that the 3rd hard 3rd medium 3rd easier sections are set out at every event.

[1shy]

The world trials championship only started in the mid seventies, and not too many years prior to that there wasn't production trials bikes just modified road machines.

Today's machines can do anything providing the rider can stick with it, but not too many can stick with it at the level required in world competition.

The only source of income to be made in the sport seems to be derived from participation, isn't attracting more participation the goal of any motorcycle association over what rules might be best for a few at the top.

I agree with a post of Dabster's it's time for a real change and not just a rule tweak one way or another.