A Different Approach

[baldilocks]

Well unfortunately we are still on the stop / no stop debate and as others have said there is more to fixing the current decline in participants in the sport generally than the rules to be run at a world championship event.

SO

can we first of all limit this topic to ideas to increase sales of bikes or participation excluding changing the rules to your preference in terms of stop / no stop. There are plenty of other threads running for that debate.

Just had a thought today about quality of the bikes we buy. The current bikes are very very good at what they do but the quality issues continue, although this does vary manufacturer to manufacturer year to year. Trials bikes have always needed parts but now they seem particularly expensive and this affects the prices of used bikes. Anybody buying a new bike every 12 months is spending a lot of cash when used bikes sell at around £3k and new ones are around £5k.

So can we solve two problems here ?

Can we influence manufacturers to make their bikes more reliable by limiting the parts they can change during the world championship season ? This could drive development in a different way rather than just lighter / more powerful.

For example Cylinder Head and Crankcases are sealed and if the seal is broken to carry out a repair ( can you tell what I was watching yesterday yet ?) then the rider incurs a 10 mark penalty at the next event. Or sealed rear and front suspension units ?

How about making the bikes production models with changes only permitted to carb and ignition ?

This could mean manufacturers spend less R&D making bikes for a top 5 that are of no use to us and more time developing a bike that will do the job for more than 6 months. From what I see a lot of the supported riders get through 2 - 3 bikes a year, the paying punter cannot afford this. If the bikes lasted longer and you didnt lose as much on them more people may buy a new modern bike rather than a twinshock or air cooled mono which people argue is likely to lose a lot less.

The above also reduces manufacturer costs as they dont have to give the top lads so many bikes per season. Section severity may reduce as a by product if the bike isnt seen as a disposable item.

This may seem alien to some but we did start out with a concept called a reliability trial.....

[greychapel]

well thought out post!...what about a "control" tyre,ie everyone uses the same (harder?) tyre? ...anyone got any more ideas?

[mickwren]

Try my best to avoid the No stop debate and I am really sorry but there is more to be made public about the direction of Trials at World Level in the near future and I fear very much for the health of the sport I have loved and served for 45 years.

The manufacturers don't seem to be aware that they are in any way to blame for the decline in world trials, it is always everybody else's fault.

Quick example of how illogical these people are ; At the begining of this season the FIM CER introduced a rule that refuelling could only take place in the paddock and you cannot imagine the negotiations that had to take place to get them to agree to this. One manufacturer from Spain with backing from the largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world stated categorically that there was no way on earth that they could possibly make a fuel tank large enough to do this. Now the brainwave coming from the manufacturers is that they want a MINIMUM of 10km lap so that all and sundry can follow the course on a bike, thus increasing their sales.

Over the years almost every rule that has been brought in at the request of the manufacturers has proved not to work and has had to be deleted or changed in one or two years time. This is simply because they are driven by sales, and not necesarrily what is best for the sport.

Also in the last few years several manufacturers have tried to introduce lower spec bikes but they don't sell, riders always want the all singing all dancing version even if they are only doing the wednesday night series of their local club, and they spend a fortune on after market " bling".

My own personal view of the biggest problem with trials is that we have a largish group of dedicated youth riders and their families who devote every penny they have and more besides to find out that at 16 the money has run out and the dream isn't going to happen.

After that we have the over 35/40 age group who simply want to have a bit of fun , ride a bike and couldn't give a monkeys about rules or how the ACU works or any of it.It's not a sport to them just a hobby.

Where we have a real problem is the few in the middle who actually want to compete to a reasonable standard at National and regional level and I always feel that we don't support these people enough. These are the riders who should be encouraged into the British Championship.

The manufacturers interference in the running of the sport is simply their attempt to sell more bikes and many good people are being lost to the sport because the suits are listening to the wrong people

[breagh]

I see where you're coming from Baldilocks.

A few sensible changes to the bikes would sort a lot of problems out,

Sadly everyone want's the" best "even though next to no one can ride them anywhere near there potential.

Unbridled bike development is the reason the sport is so fragmented.

Edited November 26, 2012 by breagh

[ham2]

A few considerations spring to mind straightaway, I'm suppressing my realism (some people call it negativity) faculty here:

Are we hinting at being able to influence manufacturers' production/research/marketing strategies ( because I recall the mighty FIM, a few years back, stating that World trials had to go four stroke and the manufacturers, bar Honda have said 'Manjana')?

If so, are we relating bike weight (reduction) to unreliability, is it that simple? i.e should we strive for a minimum weight limit of 75 Kg, would that help?

Is reliability the main deciding factor in bike choice, especially when you consider other features i.e styling/ ride/ suspension quality/ latest technology/ motor characteristics etc ?

What is the real relevance of World round Trials to bike sales, do manufacturers still believe in the old Ford mantra of 'What wins on Sunday sells on Monday'?

Sorry Glen but I've answered your questions with more questions (what were you expecting? there's another question ) and only a couple of 'blue-sky thinking' suggestions; I dream of World Rounds using 75Kg bikes, unmodified from showroom spec and my personal fave.. a handicap system involving increased air pressure in the rear tyre (cheap as chips that one), you know; if big Tone was running away with the lead, add 10psi to his Mich with a quick tolerance check on finishing a section/ lap?

Oh, and I thought Hamilton had nowhere to go when he got taken out yesterday but I still think he's a boy in a mans world.

Wayne

Edited November 26, 2012 by ham2

[laser1]

A production bike rule would seem to make sense. Many other forms of motorsports went that route to save money and help the privateer become more competitive with the factory riders.

[john b]

My opinion...(for what its worth !)

I did motocross for a good few years in the 80's/90's - just when Motocross went the 'production bike only' rule - and it was a detriment. We wanted to see Dave Thorpe etc riding the factory bikes - that fair enough no-one could buy, but the reality was that the 'production bikes' then became as much out of reach (but didn't look half as good !)

I say let the top 0.00001 % of riders (the world championship boys) ride factory lightweight etc etc - and we can be in awe of them. The reality is that for the vast majority we know that no-matter what we buy we will never be as good as them. We all know our limitations and almost all of us (bar the real dreamers) know that no bike will get us to that level (or anywhere near !)

I think we need a good easy route to get people involved in the sport - that is competing. I started trials about 13 years ago after many years of motocross, and I found even the easy route a struggle at first, but persevered and now would never pack in.

I'm currently helping with the kids in the North East and we have had a go at a real easy (purple route) primarily based at the kids progressing from the TY80 route to the 'big course'. It is bringing them on great - but I think we are missing a trick as we cant seem to attract genuine 'beginners' to do their first few trials on this route to get the hang of it. Maybe its the stigma of it being a 'kids' route rather than beginners ??

We all know once we are hooked its there for life and we will continue - it's getting that first few 'finishes' under your belt then progressing.

Although I don't think trials is anywhere near as bad as motocross in terms of needing the latest bikes, I do wonder where all of the 5 year old plus bikes are going and why they arent at a trial. I ride a 2008 Scorpa SY200 - more than competitive for me and I think any Y2K+ bike is more than capable of competing and getting people hooked.

So for me...

let the factory boys ride factory bikes and be in awe

Concentrate on attracting beginners into organised trials (there must be hundreds 'practicing' on a weekend) - an actual trial is much more fun

As well as bringing the kids through (my son is 10 and now lives for trials cos he competes), bring in the 'beginners' class - we all wait for the results on Trials Central on a Monday/Tues to see how well we have done !

cheers

John

[wri5hty]

John, i couldn't agree with you more. we had a few riders turn up at one of our events this year for their first ever trial, unfortunately they picked one of our toughest venues to start at. Thats when i realized how hard it can be to get into this sport, they all struggled, none finished. 1 in particular had only had the bike a short time (1st every bike) things we wouldn't look twice at were a challenge for this gentleman, thankfully he didn't let it put him off forever and has continued to ride and knows what to practice now. so i was thinking that next year at some of our smaller Saturday night trials to get a practice permit or similar and advertise a conducted practice for beginners of all ages, whilst some of us put the trial on the other lads can take anyone who turns up off to learn what it's all about, Rules,scoring,routes,or anything else they want to know without the whole trial being there. then if they want to ride the trial they can or just stop to watch. And as far as a beginners route i wouldn't care if they went through the start cards and out the ends taking whatever direction they liked (let them decide how hard/easy to make the section) as long as they enjoy it, on a non award basis of course.

On the subject of what the manufacturers should do with bikes, can i have a cup holder (for beer cans), better make it 2.

[nottoogood]

Well....I too like the "stock bike" approach. But I do not understand the stop/no-stop debate.....to keep from p***ing one group off...why not mix it up? Have a mix of stop allowed/non-stop sections at each event....fans could gravitate towards their likes....and riders could always be afforded a few of their preferred sections. Compromise.

[zippy]

Well....I too like the "stock bike" approach. But I do not understand the stop/no-stop debate.....to keep from p***ing one group off...why not mix it up? Have a mix of stop allowed/non-stop sections at each event....fans could gravitate towards their likes....and riders could always be afforded a few of their preferred sections. Compromise.

OOOHH imagine the drama when the top riders can't remember which sections are stop and which are no stop. And the minder(s) tell them the wrong one!!! That could be a joy to watch.

[itsafive]

When I was contemplating returning to trials at the age of 40, having last competed as a schoolboy on a TY80, I took my wife to the Sheffield Indoor to try and explain what it was all about. I left determined to start again (which I did) and my wife left saying "You'll never be able to do that - you'll kill yourself!" (and she was right!)

The point here is that those who may be persuaded to try trials but have never seen the reality of a novice route at a club trial would also look at top level competition and think that the sport as a whole is completely out of their reach.

We need to present club participation as within reach of mortals. Something that 'Kick Start' did for me as a kid. I think the ACU 'Try Trials' area at the NEC show is a good example of the right type of promotion for trials.

[nigel dabster]

I posted in another thread about why the manufacturers wernt asked what they were doing to produce a TY 80 style bike.

[dixie]

Easy Trial = Full Entry ????

Hard Trial = Only a few Hardcore young Guns.

Its not rocket science.

In the "Day" it was a hobby, a good cheap hobby that anyone could join in....

[crashmonkey]

I agree about the easy routes, my son and i started last year, he couldn't ride the 'easy' route as it was way to hard for him, we very nearly gave up.

He was disillusioned, and I couldn't take the falls and tears any more!!

However we persevered and its all come good in the end, now he's had a few finishes, we're up and running , our club have been very supportive etc, however I do think that folk that have been riding / involved for a long time don't seem to realise how difficult it can be for people from outside the sport / hobby to get into it.

Nice 'easy' routes would solve a lot of the problems.

Sadly over this last year I have seen several kids that dad has pushed them to finish 'easy trials' as they assume they should be able to do them.And then i've never seen them again

Also kickstart would market the sport in an exceptional way.Its why I wanted my son to try it (and me ) and it was 30 years ago!!!

[old trials fanatic]

I agree about the easy routes, my son and i started last year, he couldn't ride the 'easy' route as it was way to hard for him, we very nearly gave up.

He was disillusioned, and I couldn't take the falls and tears any more!!

However we persevered and its all come good in the end, now he's had a few finishes, we're up and running , our club have been very supportive etc, however I do think that folk that have been riding / involved for a long time don't seem to realise how difficult it can be for people from outside the sport / hobby to get into it.

Nice 'easy' routes would solve a lot of the problems.

Sadly over this last year I have seen several kids that dad has pushed them to finish 'easy trials' as they assume they should be able to do them.And then i've never seen them again

Also kickstart would market the sport in an exceptional way.Its why I wanted my son to try it (and me ) and it was 30 years ago!!!

Thats a VERY good point. I know a lot of us have lost track of what is easy. It's such a subjective thing. i suppose even though i'm pretty useless on a bike i just assume if i can do it then it must be easy.

You do hear a lot of people who are thinking of taking it up say "i've ridden moto x or i've ridden road bikes for years so wont be a problem" then they turn up and struggle to finish 4 laps even on the easy route.

Deffinately a point worth much more consideration than we all, especially those of us who set the courses, give it sometimes.