thomas21 Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 This weekend we attended the southern experts trial (non stop) The sections in the clubman expert were well set out and the weather was cold and crisp. Unfortunately this is where the good points end. There was no consistency in the observers what so ever. I witnessed riders clearly stopping and getting away with it and other not so well known riders getting 5s there were many arguments between observers and clippers wether it was a 5 or not. One observer was even heard to say I gave him a 2 because he went backwards !! I watched riders stoping with one foot down and getting a 3 and the next rider doing the same and getting a 5. I no it's hard to observe a non stop trial but its simple no stopping means if you stop it's a 5 even if it is a top rider, they know they have stopped!!! We are seriously considering looking for a new sport if this is what 2013 will be like Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digger144 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 i also spectated at the southern experts. very slippery conditions ,i thought the observing was sensible for the conditions on the day, this is the problem with no stop , if the ruling was rigidly enforced every rider would have been on a maximum or very close to it & would have spoilt a good trial Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 I was one of the observers on the day,we were told before the start to give the benefit of the doubt to the riders.Trouble is everybody has their own interpretation of this,so the riders dont know where they stand.I had no problem with riders questioning the scores,maybe that shows I was too lenient,but virtually every ride would have been a 5 if I had penalized every momentary stop.My view is stop permitted rules with no st0p sections would work. I've spoken to no one who thinks the no stop rules are the answer for all trials.It certainly isn't the answer to getting more people into riding and buying bikes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannyb Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 All valid points, but don't criticise the club/organising team - they did an excellent job with what resources they had IMO. I'm on the fence with no-stop/stop....few years back before I packed up I think they had the right balance: novogar series for no stop lovers, stop allowed for btc and worlds with time limits per section. any results for Sundays event? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 The observers decision like any human judge / referee etc will always be subjective however if they judge everybody no matter who they are the same then on balance it works however if some people are given more "benifit of the doubt" than others due to their percieved status then that is when it all falls apart. Muddy wet trials will always be a difficult one. I wasnt there but as i said as long as the observer judges everybody the same then in my book thats ok. Nice to see the are out in force already. See you then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 I have said this before but think its worth repeating under stop permitted a rider goes back a couple of inches, observer doesnt give a five nobody appears to think this is an issue stop permitted the rider stops for 0.00000001 of a second, observer doesnt give a five and people are jumping up and down going "see it doesnt work it s rubbish its not modern trials blah blah blah" I have regulalry seen good riders moving backwards and getting cleans, joe punter does it with his foot down its a five. Observing is somebodies opinion , its subjective and whatever the rules are they will not be applied correctly at all times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 I have said this before but think its worth repeating under stop permitted a rider goes back a couple of inches, observer doesnt give a five nobody appears to think this is an issue No stop the rider stops for 0.00000001 of a second, observer doesnt give a five and people are jumping up and down going "see it doesnt work it s rubbish its not modern trials blah blah blah" I have regulalry seen good riders moving backwards and getting cleans, joe punter does it with his foot down its a five. Observing is somebodies opinion , its subjective and whatever the rules are they will not be applied correctly at all times. Well said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 I was one of the observers on the day,we were told before the start to give the benefit of the doubt to the riders.Trouble is everybody has their own interpretation of this,so the riders dont know where they stand.I had no problem with riders questioning the scores,maybe that shows I was too lenient,but virtually every ride would have been a 5 if I had penalized every momentary stop.My view is stop permitted rules with no st0p sections would work. I've spoken to no one who thinks the no stop rules are the answer for all trials.It certainly isn't the answer to getting more people into riding and buying bikes good point. I have said this before but think its worth repeating under stop permitted a rider goes back a couple of inches, observer doesnt give a five nobody appears to think this is an issue stop permitted the rider stops for 0.00000001 of a second, observer doesnt give a five and people are jumping up and down going "see it doesnt work it s rubbish its not modern trials blah blah blah" I have regulalry seen good riders moving backwards and getting cleans, joe punter does it with his foot down its a five. Observing is somebodies opinion , its subjective and whatever the rules are they will not be applied correctly at all times. It wasnt for a five for 1 sec pause, should that have been a five? Rolling back wasnt a 5 at this trial at some sections should that have been a five? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timp Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 What a farce. Why isn't it possible to stick to the rules. If the section is too hard or tight then everyone should get a five. Don't alter the rules to suit the conditions. I wonder if you can hit the ball outside the lines in tennis when it's windy and count it as in!! Surely the clerk of the course or the stewards can't condone these actions. If its laid out too tight or too hard then give everyone the proper score then perhaps next year the trial will be laid out better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betabonkers Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 (edited) What a farce. Why isn't it possible to stick to the rules. If the section is too hard or tight then everyone should get a five. Don't alter the rules to suit the conditions. I wonder if you can hit the ball outside the lines in tennis when it's windy and count it as in!! Surely the clerk of the course or the stewards can't condone these actions. If its laid out too tight or too hard then give everyone the proper score then perhaps next year the trial will be laid out better. spot on. Edited December 5, 2012 by betabonkers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 What a farce. Why isn't it possible to stick to the rules. If the section is too hard or tight then everyone should get a five. Don't alter the rules to suit the conditions. I wonder if you can hit the ball outside the lines in tennis when it's windy and count it as in!! Surely the clerk of the course or the stewards can't condone these actions. If its laid out too tight or too hard then give everyone the proper score then perhaps next year the trial will be laid out better. Exactly. Clubs need to mark out sections which riders can actually ride within the rules and observers as far as humanly possible need to apply those rules. Trials is a farce, its about how much cheating people can get away with and how far rules can be bent. Harsh but when you stand back and look at a trial thats what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billycraig Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 ...however if they judge everybody no matter who they are the same then on balance it works...observer judges everybody the same then in my book thats ok. Not necessarily, if a rider makes a genuine attempt to ride a section no stop, pushes the bike out for a 3 then watches other riders stop, balance momentarily and get less marks then its not really fair on the person riding to the rules. This idea that "as long as an observer marks everyone the same its all right" is just disadvantaging someone who either has a valiant attempt at keeping forward motion whilst loosing loads of dabs or someone who has a damn good genuine ride, then watches someone get away with lenient "count to three before its a stop" observing. Not a fan of no stop rules but its farcical to set a rule then ignore or alter it to suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wri5hty Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Observing everyone the same is ok in theory. But if observer on section 1 is strict, and observer on section 2 is lenient. Rider A has a momentary stop on 1, rider B has his momentary stop on 2. A =5, B = 0. Thats not really fair neither. Ideally Consistency across the board is what is needed, but getting that is always going to be difficult. Arguing with observers and blatant cheeting need to be clamped down on. Many of us have been far to lax for far too long on it, and I include myself in that. On a personal note when I drag the bike out on a weekend I couldn't give a toss what the rules are, as long as I enjoy the day I dont care, and the odd dodgy score isn't going to affect that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas21 Posted December 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Fully agree with wr15hty consistency has to be on every section then it's fair to all riders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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