199A Numbers

[scot taco]

Just curious about the frame and engine numbers on my 199a.They are the same except the last two numbers.The last to on the frame are 35 while on the motor they are 40.I just wonder if being so close could it have come from the factory that way?

[woody]

Possibly, many of the early bikes didn't have matching numbers whereas the later ones are more likely to, so yours could have come like that or it could be another engine fitted by someone. As they are so close, it's more likely it came like that.

The story is that when the engines were bench tested, the better motors were put aside for the works riders which is why there were mis-matches. No idea if this is true or not but you'd think that from the first time that was done with each new model, none of the subsequent bikes could match unless they omitted a few numbers on the frames to get them back into matching sequence....

[scot taco]

Thanks Woody.After I posted this topic I found an interview with Ignacio Bulto somewhere on the web.As I,ve read before, 1979-80 didn,t sound very good at the factory so I,m guessing that it came that way.

[stevem75]

From the info I've gathered over the years all bultacos left the factory with matching numbers. They had to be very very particular about this as the export duty they would have to pay would negate any possible profits. Here in north america it is virtually unheard of to have had a bultaco with non matching numbers. If it happened it was more likely due to engines being swapped out for warranty purposes at the dealership level. I have done extensive serial number searches over the years. Its easy to jot down the serial numbers from a bike that is advertised on ebay. Over many years I have found that batches of bikes were sold to different regions. For example all Model 82 matadors with serial numbers from 1430 to 1470 were shipped to western canada . All M75 matador with numbers 2060 to 2165 were also shipped to western canada. Now for a M199a to have a non matching motor that is only five numbers off isnt surprising. There is also a "document" that many of us have showing what is supposed to be actual production numbers of most common units. This document was a copy of the production list that cemoto put out in march 1982. In some cases this document is accurate. In many it isn't. I personally have a M159 sherpa t with the serial number in the 4000 range. The production list says only 500 were made. Bultaco kept strict track of their numbers. There were defenitely more than 4000 M159's built not 500 like the list said. I also owned and sold M19913456-B sherpa t. In canada there was only about half a dozen 199B's imported here. All have numbers within a few digits of the one I owned. I'd bet your 199a left the factory matching and it was either changed at comerfords or swapped at a dealer because of some sort of running or warranty issue.

Steve

Edited January 16, 2013 by stevem75

[penno350]

My 199A has identical numbers for frame and engine.

[sparks2]

Very interesting

On my M80 the frame and engine numbers differ by 5 or 6.

Could the machines at the time have been built and exported with the same numbers,

but then have been broken down by Comerfords in the UK to be sold in kit form to avoid purchase tax, the forrunner of VAT ?

Perhaps Comerfords were then less than careful when it came to which engine and frame went out the door at a particular time.

VAT was introduced in the UK on April 1st 1973 so theory only holds good before this date.

Your thoughts please

Regards

Sparks2

Edited January 16, 2013 by sparks2

[scot taco]

I thought about the warranty thing also,but I thought the numbers would be farther apart.I,m in the USA so maybe that has something to do with it? My numbers are in the 11,000 range ending with A. Is there any way to tell if it,s a 1979 or 1980?

[lorenzo]

It seems there may be a real basis for the idea that later bikes are more likely to have matching numbers than older ones; this is borne out with my own bikes.

My oldest Bult is a '73 model 92 whose engine and frame serial nos. differ by 61. I believed in view of its relative newness when I bought it in '75 that the engine had likely been replaced at importer or dealer level as a result of a warranty issue.

My other six bikes (including 2 199a's) all have matching numbers.

It's a sad fact with many old bikes that no particular importance was attached to matching numbers when the bikes had little resale value...........

With some old British bikes in particular, matching numbers can have a significant influence on their apparent desirabilty and worth.

Stevem75 - my model 159 has a serial number in the 2000 series, and my '81 199B a number just 400-odd lower than the number you quoted.

Sparks2 - my mod. 92 was registered on 5th. April, last day of the tax year - a coincidence, maybe........

Edited January 17, 2013 by lorenzo

[stevem75]

I still believe all bikes that left the factory were matching numbers. There were exceptions of course. I know works riders would have had access to whatever they needed to keep them going. The bikes in the uk came in through comerfords. In north america they came through the bultaco importer in new york. From there I think they were shipped throughout the states. There was another warehouse in california that distributed bikes also. If you have a bike with non matching numbers I'd bet it was changed at the importer or dealer level for some unknown reason. Remember Franco era spain was a tough economy to get around in. Bultaco sublet out alot of their parts manufacture etc etc to get around tax laws and duties and such. The government of the time kept strict control of the economy and they knew what was coming in and going out of the country. Bultaco would have been under the microscope when it came to having matching numbers.

Steve

[bondy]

my 199b is a 1983 model and has matching frame and engin numbers. my 198b is a 1981 model also as the same numbers but dose have 3 numbers stamp near the gear filler cap.dose anybody know what they would be there for?

[scot taco]

Hi Bondy,how can you tell that one is an 83 and the other an 81? I have seen a few listings that say my 199A is a 79 and more that say it,s an 80.I guess it doesn,t really matter,but I am curious what year mine is.

I was also looking at bikes in the garage section and saw one of yours.It looked great,nice job!

[bondy]

hi scot i emailed bultaco uk gave them my engin and frame numbers and they sent me a letter for each bike saying what make and model and year they are. if you go on face book theres more photos off my other bikes.

[stevem75]

In the UK Bultacos are referred to by year. Compared to say the States or Canada this is how they registered their bikes in that country. When a bike was brought to the UK it was documented on which day and which year it was brought in; I'm guessing this was done at comerfords but could be wrong. Effectively the "country" designated the year of the bike. While its accurate that bondy's bike is an 81 model according to when it was imported, this is a very inaccurate way to identify a bultaco. To say a 199A is a 1979 model year is misleading. They built the 199A in 79 and 80 possibly even 81. When ordering parts for a bultaco you can't just say " I need a piston for my 1975 350 sherpa t"........ Ok which sherpa t would that be ?. The Model 151 or possibly the 159. Both were made in 1975. Model numbers are the most accurate and only way to correctly identify which bike it is. While it may be of some importance or value when registering a bike it is of no consequence when proper identification is required. My M199B had the serial 13456. I know factually that the 199B serial numbers went right up past 14200 or so. To try and determine the year it was built would be difficult. Unless someone from the uk has a serial number in the same range as mine was and can tell me when theirs was registered . And Bondy.... if you have a 198B that is a very rare bike.

Steve

[bondy]

hi steve yes i do have a 198b think there was only 270 198bs ever built are there about. there is 3 leters are numbers cant remeber with out looking near the gear filler plug on my 198b havant seen this on any other bultaco before,

[lorenzo]

There are so many variables affecting the perceived age of a Bultaco (or any other bike, for that matter), not the least of these being its original export destination.

Additionally, model nos. alone only go so far in detail identification - a glance at a mod. 199 parts book will reveal so many changes in the course of the production run as to make the latest bikes almost a different model (in Bultaco terms) from the early examples. This would be the reason your dealer may insist on the serial number as well when supplying parts, of course.........

My own take on the dating issue is that with a trials bike the "year" is largely irrelevant, and I'm sure the only definitive way to find the year of actual manufacture of a Bultaco would be to access the original factory records - I couldn't say who holds these, or if they even exist.

Edited January 18, 2013 by lorenzo