old trials fanatic Posted February 10, 2013 Report Share Posted February 10, 2013 Well put copemech. Simply put the machine must maintain forward motion in relation to the section. The wheels can stop rotating as in locked up whilst descending a slippery gully etc but forward motion must be maintained at all times. One thing that seems to be glossed over a lot is the fact that with the introduction to non stop the type of sections ridden would have to be different to ones used where stop is allowed. It would be silly to expect a rider to ride the sections currently used in that configuration in a non stop allowed way. Non stop requires section setters to think a bit more not just take the easy option of sticking a big step in with no run up etc. Time to make the sections technically challenging to make the riders think with their heads not their bo11ocks. The main skill which is sadly lacking in a lot of modern riders is the ability to see a line through the entire section and then ride it. they have become too accustomed to riding 3ft stop hop line up ride 3ft stop hop line up etc. Perhaps as an extra benifit we can now get rid of those bloody minders and catchers ! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernnorm Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 (edited) As a life long super trials enthusiast ,competitor/mider /course builder /etc I have seen a lot of things happen in this sport. I clearly think the F.I.M. ,trials is making a mistake on this no stop rule. When Raga says it stinks you can bet there are few RIDERS who are pleased with new rule.I also feel that years of developing todays modern, insanely skilled techniques should not be thrown away because some old non riding gentlemen are more interested in tradition and nostalgia ,than listening to what the men who compete want .. I could see a seperate class or series for the throwback minded, as in XC ski racing they have modern skating class and also run the "traditional" diagonal class. Anyway it seems absurd to just go change the whole sport with little rider input. That said there will still be the problem of observers who take their own interpritation of the rules too far and become opver zealous giving points for calls that should not occur due to (the benefit of the doubt goes to the rider) clause. SO many times that is NOT the case .I am overjoyed the new NATC heads are not rushing to the new format as we have seen over and over the WTC structure is not consistent enough to blindly follow. Edited February 16, 2013 by northernnorm 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernnorm Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 One solution would be a players strike. When 1st round arrives and no one is there to ride, then maybe they would ask riders what they want! And all you guys who think minders should be done away with ,thats another idea that is unrealistic.Even at club level events guys who want to push and have some thrills will get help from a spotter , it would be foolish to NOT have an assistant that often saves catastrophe! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motovita Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 New WTC rules for 2013 nationals World Trials Canada The WTC national trials council has announced new rules for national events. Organizers of non-national, WTC-sanctioned events are still free to use Rule 4i, which provides for these rules to be tailored to local preferences. Changes to scoring. A new paragraph is added to rule 4d (definition of a failure) which reads as follows: "any part of the rider remains in contact with the ground for a period of approximately five seconds (during which the observer counts aloud from 'one' to 'five'), while the the machine remains stationary" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sting32 Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 (edited) Northern mom, This thread is the typical pontification by older guys, with Viagra enhanced rose colored glasses of days gone by, telling everyone that in the "good old days" that we should go back to. Yeah, I believe these same guys still don't like to admit that their parents had sex, and that it wasn't stoic, or without lust, like we see even on TV nowdays. Sorry, no stop was an "era" kind of like race cars having to be based on actual cars people drive to work. The bitching about long lines, is bullcrap, when you have 100+ riders, there are going to be lines. Even back in the "good ol days" if a section is particularly tough, the lines get even longer. Get over this idea, for god's sake, that you shouldn't have to wait your turn? By god, I live in a town that has less than 1500 people in it, I get ticked off when I have to wait at a stop-sign for more than one car to go by, Imagine how I deal, when I get to a bigger city and there are thousands of cars, DON'T even ask me to take you to the malls! But I tell ya, I'm laughing my butt off about the "imagine the movie, guy stopped with foot down" you think a video like that is going to be released? HA!? I mean lets get real, it isnt 1960 we can edit, and no scene anymore last more than a "one one thousand" count, because everyone watching has ADD/ADHT. But, in an argument I have my version of the same crapy video... I can see the same "shot" that would be on the cutting room floor, so to speak. Here's how it goes. A rider (the only one in line) enters the section, music from "on any sunday in the background" Announcer's voice, who sounds like the guy from kickstart.... "Just look at Jeffrey, on his advanced 2003 designed, 2014 Honda 4rt struggling to get through a rather typical, tough section..." He's shown dabbing 49 times, going at it "no stop" charging up a hostile creek section... and the announcer continues, "well, Jeffrey just saved himself 2 points, by getting a 3 for his effort... Good job Jeffrey" The only way "trials" is going to be anything like the glorified fond memories of the 'good old days' is going to happen, is when we ban trials bikes. Honda will produce a clone of a 68 Norton commando, since they wont have to retool much from the 4rt, lol, and we'll effectively have to BAN nose wheelies and anything deemed "advanced techniques" which surfaced after 1979... Edited February 15, 2013 by sting32 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_t Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 New WTC rules for 2013 nationals World Trials Canada The WTC national trials council has announced new rules for national events. Organizers of non-national, WTC-sanctioned events are still free to use Rule 4i, which provides for these rules to be tailored to local preferences. Changes to scoring. A new paragraph is added to rule 4d (definition of a failure) which reads as follows: "any part of the rider remains in contact with the ground for a period of approximately five seconds (during which the observer counts aloud from 'one' to 'five'), while the the machine remains stationary" Not sure why this found its way to the USA section of this site... but being the Maritimes Rep for WTC I voted in favour of this... figured it was worth giving it a go... not really much of an issue at the events we put on here in the Maritimes but having people stoping mid section to take a breather and figure out their next move just doesn't seem in the spirit of the sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin belair Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 (edited) Northern mom, This thread is the typical pontification by older guys, with Viagra enhanced rose colored glasses of days gone by, telling everyone that in the "good old days" that we should go back to. Yeah, I believe these same guys still don't like to admit that their parents had sex, and that it wasn't stoic, or without lust, like we see even on TV nowdays. Sorry, no stop was an "era" kind of like race cars having to be based on actual cars people drive to work. The bitching about long lines, is bullcrap, when you have 100+ riders, there are going to be lines. Even back in the "good ol days" if a section is particularly tough, the lines get even longer. Get over this idea, for god's sake, that you shouldn't have to wait your turn? By god, I live in a town that has less than 1500 people in it, I get ticked off when I have to wait at a stop-sign for more than one car to go by, Imagine how I deal, when I get to a bigger city and there are thousands of cars, DON'T even ask me to take you to the malls! But I tell ya, I'm laughing my butt off about the "imagine the movie, guy stopped with foot down" you think a video like that is going to be released? HA!? I mean lets get real, it isnt 1960 we can edit, and no scene anymore last more than a "one one thousand" count, because everyone watching has ADD/ADHT. But, in an argument I have my version of the same crapy video... I can see the same "shot" that would be on the cutting room floor, so to speak. Here's how it goes. A rider (the only one in line) enters the section, music from "on any sunday in the background" Announcer's voice, who sounds like the guy from kickstart.... "Just look at Jeffrey, on his advanced 2003 designed, 2014 Honda 4rt struggling to get through a rather typical, tough section..." He's shown dabbing 49 times, going at it "no stop" charging up a hostile creek section... and the announcer continues, "well, Jeffrey just saved himself 2 points, by getting a 3 for his effort... Good job Jeffrey" The only way "trials" is going to be anything like the glorified fond memories of the 'good old days' is going to happen, is when we ban trials bikes. Honda will produce a clone of a 68 Norton commando, since they wont have to retool much from the 4rt, lol, and we'll effectively have to BAN nose wheelies and anything deemed "advanced techniques" which surfaced after 1979... I can't respond this....it's too weird. I do however want to preserve it as an example. I think that talking about the sex lives of someone's parents is out of line....and creepy. Edited February 15, 2013 by martin belair 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin belair Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 One solution would be a players strike. When 1st round arrives and no one is there to ride, then maybe they would ask riders what they want! Noel, as a very experienced rider and as the father of 5 time us champ Pat Smage you have a lot to offer in helping our sport grow. I realize that the benefits of no stop are hard for some people to comprehend. There are going to be varied opinions, that's fine, let's exchange ideas ...BUT.... the idea of a riders strike will only hurt the sport. remember we are all volunteers. Telling us that we don't have to bust our buts to set up a trials, Or that some riders are going to strike. Won't hurt us.....I am sure Cody will show up. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 New WTC rules for 2013 nationals World Trials Canada The WTC national trials council has announced new rules for national events. Organizers of non-national, WTC-sanctioned events are still free to use Rule 4i, which provides for these rules to be tailored to local preferences. Changes to scoring. A new paragraph is added to rule 4d (definition of a failure) which reads as follows: "any part of the rider remains in contact with the ground for a period of approximately five seconds (during which the observer counts aloud from 'one' to 'five'), while the the machine remains stationary" I interpret this to be Stop and Balance is OK = clean Stop with foot down is not ok = 5. Sounds like the stop with penalty rule. I like that because you can still use modern techniques but you have to actually be in control of the bike when using these techniques. I really think this rule is a good bridge between stop and foot down for 5 minutes and only get a one and the no stop idea. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motovita Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Not sure why this found its way to the USA section of this site... It's almost like we were neighbors eh. Many of us ride on both sides of the border, In fact some of my best friends are Canadian... although I wouldn't want my daughter to marry one . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Riding can be fun! Sports Suck! Look at this sport! Do you think Martin or Noel will volunteer to observe a section in TN? Stand there all weekend and take in the sights! I am sure we need experienced observers, and their job is what? To hand out points! That is what we do and that is what makes it a SPORT! I do believe it needs to be easier to administer points to riders. Many complain about scores in single digits, yet the course verges upon killin off others. No wonder riders are scared to progress to WTC level, heck, we only have about 2 that may muster a decent run at the JR class in this point and shoot environment. Even setting a section for advanced riders on a National or Regional level can be tough without getting someone hurt. All said, I admit I am torn on this subject, yet at the same time I believe stop for 5 is too harsh in its strictest sense. Same with brushing a flag or marker, but that is just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernnorm Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 (edited) Martin I am speaking of WTC events, if few riders see it as a good idea then why dont they express their displeasure. The US NATC rounds are safe from this silliness as far as I know. On one hand the no stop rule is partially designed to improve spectator turnout and next you hear of longer loops which is contrary to the small stadium prone way some venues(Japan) have been going. So it just seems like they are up to change for the sake of change . To mess with the whole sport to possibly sell a few more bikes is foolish. The pics of Barcelona world x indoor it looked like an endurocross track in the building ,that is a good tool for promoting x over riding. Canada s idea of a 5 if parked for 5 is a much better idea . It seemed like with a strict time limit and many times a long busy section riders really couldnt hang out in any 1 spot very long anyway. Let the Scots and Brits ride by ancient rules if they must but lets not make that affect the rest of the world. I am pretty sure our local club will not be changing to no- stop mainly because the pres. lets the RIDERS decide And even if it is changed our Champ clas is like 1 to 4 guys who will ride whatever rules we want which is clearly what we have been doing for decades= stop/ hop set up slam /smile when it works mode .BTW I liked stings post but when did Lane move to MINN/Kansas Edited February 16, 2013 by northernnorm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernnorm Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 (edited) Theoretically no stop should be easier to score , but I am sure some will invent their own tideas of a thousand and 1 or 2 or 3 when stucked on slimy log or something . Just like the most current rules stating NO sideways or reverse motion allowed ,yet with most pivot and hop moves the rule is commonly bent time after time. I think that rule was to keep riders from straight pullback/rollback that was so common in the LeJuene,Tarres days and yes they really did a lot of parking , making filming a hassle because you would turn off camera to save film and then miss it when they finally pulled the trigger. Thats when a tight time limit FIXED the problem. Edited February 16, 2013 by northernnorm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 How many of your events are oversubscribed requiring a ballot for entry ? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernnorm Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Absolutely close to none that I know of. Many US dirt bikers try to ride slow with beneficial techniques and feel foolish when they cant figure it out. So they go back to just tearing up trails and making dust. Again with a TIME LIMIT for riding sections it doesnt matter what happens within the section,I know its harder to balance going backwards and have felt that skill shouldnt be a penalty unless footing while doing so. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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