2stroke4stroke Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Laser "Haven't agile, light weight bikes out sold the over priced, heavy ones for many years now?" We can only buy what is for sale and have had no choice, within your definition, "for many years now" but to buy the lightweight bikes. You might be surprised how well the older heavier bikes would sell if the twinshocks or early monoshocks were magically put back in to production. I'm sure events to suit would appear. Let's face it the average middle route for modern bikes in many trials is less severe, relatively, and indeed absolutely in several cases, than a lot of trials we rode thirty and more years ago. I can cite a lot of steps we used to do on Bultos etc that are now regarded as too difficult and ridden round rather than up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckindenver Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 the older i get, then better i used to ride.. at 50, i can see a section in my minds eye, and how to ride it as well, my body just doesnt have the skills anymore to ride big stuff, advance is about the limit of crazy stuff i can handle anymore, i still have to work on Monday, and it takes a lot longer to heal up then it did in my 20,s but, i can sure tape out a sweet section, that will make the best skilled rider put a foot down without endangering lives, it was fun helping someone.. keep in mind, most these young riders, have never rode non stop, and have been trained how to stop and hop since being little guys, they havnt had the pleasure of riding big rocks on an old 247 Cota, so its a big learning curv, ill give him credit for wanting to learn, how to smooth out, and ride no stop, even with some tight hard stuff, he eventually cleaned everything i set up, but one...bested it with a 1. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin belair Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) so, yesterday i worked with someone that thinking about riding in the world round, i set some sections that were tough no stop, he could clean them easy riding stop, took a few times, and some arm pump to make them no stop. we played with a couple splatters, and he rode them no stop, very fun to watch.. not so impressive to watch a rider i know can ride big stuff, ride basic expert not pro level sections no stop. his words.....no stop sux. i agree keep in mind, most these young riders, have never rode non stop, and have been trained how to stop and hop since being little guys, they havnt had the pleasure of riding big rocks on an old 247 Cota, so its a big learning curv, ill give him credit for wanting to learn, how to smooth out, and ride no stop, even with some tight hard stuff, he eventually cleaned everything i set up, but one...bested it with a 1. Full credit to you guys Chuck for accepting the challenge and giving it a go. Agree or not... I respect the opinion of one who has tried it. Edited February 25, 2013 by martin belair 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckindenver Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 i re tuned my riding style back to as much no stop as possible last year, i wanted to get back to the basics again, at the level i ride, it actually helped my scores in the long run, and made me look at the lines different, it was a hard learning curv to do so, but i have rode no stop for years, and then got into stop and hop a few years ago, and felt it hurt the basics i know so well, that i always did good at, unless they tone down and make the sections about expert to upper advance level, no stop will fail. no matter how you see it...its a step backwards in the sport.. it wont improve bike sales, or bring new riders into the sport, it will likely push riders into other venue, and hurt new motorcycle sales. like i said, want to sell bikes, aim then at the int,Adv riders, they are the ones that spend money to travel, ride ect..and most dont care about the medal, at the end of the day. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 I started riding as a youngen back in the late 70's on Yamaha TYs (80 and 175). Basic idea was first gear and never touch the clutch. But the idle could also be set to fire once every 30 mins or so. Then I was out for a few years after graduation etc.... Then I get back into it about 8-10 yrs ago and the bikes are AWESOME. Hydraulic clutch so smooth to use, engines rev to the moon, brakes that actually work, and real suspension. Balance, stop and hop are just parts of progression of the sport. I know nobody cares about how I ride but here goes. I try to be smooth when I ride, this does not mean riding no stop. Some turns I will try to "ride through" smooth like the old days, if I am unable then I will try to hop the rear or the front. Sometimes I will stop, balance and collect myself before attempting what is a "large" obstacle or hill climb for me. Point to all this is I try to incorporate both styles in my riding. Both sets of skills have a place in Trials, and usually it is in the same section. I don't want a heavier bike, a twin shock bike or a bike with a seat. I have no problem if the manufacturers decide to produce them again as another option, but please don't stop making the Trials specific machines that we now have, that would be a step backwards. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Riding can be fun! Sports Suck! Look at this sport! Do you think Martin or Noel will volunteer to observe a section in TN? Stand there all weekend and take in the sights! I am sure we need experienced observers, and their job is what? To hand out points! That is what we do and that is what makes it a SPORT! I do believe it needs to be easier to administer points to riders. Many complain about scores in single digits, yet the course verges upon killin off others. No wonder riders are scared to progress to WTC level, heck, we only have about 2 that may muster a decent run at the JR class in this point and shoot environment. Even setting a section for advanced riders on a National or Regional level can be tough without getting someone hurt. All said, I admit I am torn on this subject, yet at the same time I believe stop for 5 is too harsh in its strictest sense. Same with brushing a flag or marker, but that is just me. I am still waiting to see just how many of the Elder Statesmen of this sport will volunteer to observe at TN. You see we need your experience and knowledge to stand out there all day so the event may be done correctly! After all, you now have the guidence of an official FIM video! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nh014 Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Just finished viewing the FIM No Stop video. Yes, it will place a little more pressure on the checkers, but it is a step in the right direction and so much better than the current stop and hop, and stop and hop antics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sting32 Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 We're not alone (those of us that refute that no stop is any kind of answer)... You guys got facebook? Might as well get on there, top riders even from few years back are agreeing, no-stop is really going to cause scoring troubles, that we just don't need to add troubles to this sport... "I want to see boxing matches that will appear when observers will give five for certain movements with this new rule..." See if you can find these quotes on facebook. There are more of us, that are "don't think so" about this dumb idea of no stop, it didn't work then, why do we think it will work now? NATC better fully staff about 5+ people and secretaries, for the protest booth each event! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckindenver Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 i watched the same FIM video...notice...not one section is really a world class type section, nothing on the video is really much harder then the upper advance line. when we all know that Raga, and the rest can ride 3 times harder sections, i understand it was a how to video, but most the cornering ect was made with hops that really didnt need to be made, all but a couple of them could have been made with no hop, and no stop at all.. i could ride most of the stuff they had in the video, and im not close to the tallent they have on that video. to be honest, when they gave a clean rather then a 5 on a couple of them, i didnt really see the differance, and iv scored no stop for many years, this will sure be a score keepers nightmare for sure, i was under the impression that as long as the suspension was loaded, and a wheel was moving, it was foward motion.. but it seems i was wrong, a slight stop for any reason..is a 5..yikes. so...a side hop is now a 5 as well? unless your moving foward while doing so.. sheesh..i dont this working out very well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bputt Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Well, for 2013, NATC carries on as in past years, with Stop Allowed, so for the moment, we don't need to get too wrapped up in the emotion, we just need to be very thoughtful in regards to our future rules. Although, I have to admit, a highly emotional response is certainly tempting, regardless of which side of the debate you may fall on! The dilemma NATC faces will be for 2014 and beyond. And that Dilemma really relates to our Pros, aspiring Pros, high level Expert riders (and the dads/minders that drag them or follow them around) who want to be competitive at a World level. If we really want to start to foster and encourage world level competitors here in the US, we are going to have to adopt the FIM regulations so our guys can compete at TDN and World Rounds. I can already hear the argument that "there aren't many of those guys/gals who are interested in international competition, so we don't need to be concerned with what they do over there". But several of our younger riders, especially some of the current Pros and Experts, are driven by the desire to test themselves against the world, and if NATC doesn't adopt FIM regulations at some stage, our riders will be disadvantaged on the international stage. I expect that the discussions this year relating to the rules in 2014 will be very interesting. As one of those dads/minders who is happily dragging my son all over this country and hoping to see him competing internationally some day, I have come to the conclusion that I can't get too wound up about what rules are finally chosen. We are ALL IN for this sport in any case, and will deal with the hand that is dealt, and learn how to compete within whatever rules are put in place. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckindenver Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 http://www.trialscentral.com/headline-stories/14585-fim-no-stop-video Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bputt Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Yeah, the video makes it all as clear as mud to me! I had trouble seeing the difference on some of the examples between the clean and the fail. I think Observers are really in for a hard time. The folks checking at TTC this year will have their hands full, especially since this is a one-off "No-Stop" event here in the US this year! I hope competitors give them the respect they deserve... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Well, for 2013, NATC carries on as in past years, with Stop Allowed, so for the moment, we don't need to get too wrapped up in the emotion, we just need to be very thoughtful in regards to our future rules. Although, I have to admit, a highly emotional response is certainly tempting, regardless of which side of the debate you may fall on! The dilemma NATC faces will be for 2014 and beyond. And that Dilemma really relates to our Pros, aspiring Pros, high level Expert riders (and the dads/minders that drag them or follow them around) who want to be competitive at a World level. If we really want to start to foster and encourage world level competitors here in the US, we are going to have to adopt the FIM regulations so our guys can compete at TDN and World Rounds. I can already hear the argument that "there aren't many of those guys/gals who are interested in international competition, so we don't need to be concerned with what they do over there". But several of our younger riders, especially some of the current Pros and Experts, are driven by the desire to test themselves against the world, and if NATC doesn't adopt FIM regulations at some stage, our riders will be disadvantaged on the international stage. I expect that the discussions this year relating to the rules in 2014 will be very interesting. As one of those dads/minders who is happily dragging my son all over this country and hoping to see him competing internationally some day, I have come to the conclusion that I can't get too wound up about what rules are finally chosen. We are ALL IN for this sport in any case, and will deal with the hand that is dealt, and learn how to compete within whatever rules are put in place. First off I would like to commend you and your young rider on the commitment you have made for the sport, it would be a giant boost for the USA if we do have riders compete internationally and I sincerly wish you luck and many clean rides. Keeping all my emotions out of this and just using logic. NATC serves many skill levels of riders, not just the Pros and aspiring Pros. NATC should not adopt a rule that only a few competitors will "benefit" from. You state "and learn how to compete within whatever rules are put in place." which is true of any rider that chooses to compete in other events/venues/series other than their "home" events. So it is up to the competitor to find out the rules for those events and prepare themselves for it. It is not the resposibility of another organization to do that for them. For example: MOTA and TI are "local" club level organizations, both have similiar rules but there are differences which will cause a rider to obtain a 5 if they are unaware. If I choose to ride both series I am responsible to know the rules and practice the skills necessary to ride the 2 different series. MOTA and NATC have a different set of rules, it is not the resposibility of MOTA to make sure that I am prepared for riding nationals, that is my responsibility. We could even expand on this and bring into it AHRMA and ITSA. I would love to have the time and money to ride all these series, but it would be my responsibilty to be ready for each different series. Yes, it would be ideal if we had in the USA a "Great Grand Unified Trials Rule Theory" and we all ran events to the same rules............ but let's face it that ain't gonna happen. Just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
htrdoug Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Yeah, the video makes it all as clear as mud to me! I had trouble seeing the difference on some of the examples between the clean and the fail. I think Observers are really in for a hard time. The folks checking at TTC this year will have their hands full, especially since this is a one-off "No-Stop" event here in the US this year! I hope competitors give them the respect they deserve... I think we should run the Pro Class at Nationals under whatever rules the World Championships are running at the time,then after the World rounds are over(I don't even know when their season runs ) Have a "Trans Am" series in the fall here in the U.S. with full Stop and backup allowed,No big "FIM" sanctions,just whoever wants to ride can come over and compete. Look what it did for motocross in the '70's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckindenver Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) ITSA and AHRMA are not AMA affiliated, AHRMA lost is AMA backing years ago, money and politcs ruined it, i doubt ITSA has any interest in AMA as well, ITSA is a small club, but will likely grow with time, AMA does have a TS {twin shock} class that runs the clubman line, as well as runs the Vintage days in Ohio as well. i really dont think AMA has alot of real vested interest in Trials from what i see, NATC really controls what happens nationally in the U.S. its a toss up if No Stop will stay in FIM, if it does, you can bet it will effect the NATC rules as well in the next couple seasons, any state level club that hosts a National event will likely take on the NATC rules as they are set. nation wide ill bet we have less then 20 Pro riders, id have to sit and think of the names, the bread and butter of the events is the support classes, you can look for yourself and see the amount of riders that compete Nationally, locally id bet its Intermediat and advance classes that are the money makers..unless some of the younger expert level kids start to step up to the pro line in the next few years, the pro class will get smaller before it starts to grow. Edited February 27, 2013 by chuckindenver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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