No Stop Rule

[copemech]

Now mind you, I have studied this for a number of years now, long before the new ruling. It seems to me the FIM video is indeed essentially correct in its representation of examples, so I am now fully justified in handing out a 5 for anything exceeding 500 miliseconds and I will adjust accordingly!

There may well be a LOT of highly p****d riders, but who cares! I could take a really good fart in that time, and if you can't manage to get the bike going, then you are screwed! 5 for you--- Next rider ! I need to hand out some points here!

This is fun! Come on guys, lets all go to TN and kick some butt! We need to hand them more than they planned for! I might see Bou on a 50 point day!

[lineaway]

Anyone remember the video of the german scorer beat the crap out of the mouthy rider, about mid 90`s? We might see that again at TTC. For those of you saying non-stop is boring, bet me!! I see a road trip in may!

[northernnorm]

OK I watched the vid of all those fine riders riding green line rocks and see a lot of nice riding. I also noted the red x shows up even for 1/2 second to 1 second pauses MOST of the time . at 5:46 Caby clearly moves rearward a touch on back wheel and it is OK but when Dabill does it at 6:30 it is called a failure. I think Oliveras moved a MM forward on his side hop so why is that not OK ??? It is not clear at all how to score a true pause to a conceived pause. Good luck getting it consistent scorers. At least they dont have to run a stopwatch .

[kramit]

OK I watched the vid of all those fine riders riding green line rocks and see a lot of nice riding. I also noted the red x shows up even for 1/2 second to 1 second pauses MOST of the time . at 5:46 Caby clearly moves rearward a touch on back wheel and it is OK but when Dabill does it at 6:30 it is called a failure. I think Oliveras moved a MM forward on his side hop so why is that not OK ??? It is not clear at all how to score a true pause to a conceived pause. Good luck getting it consistent scorers. At least they dont have to run a stopwatch .

I think stopping to advance your position is what the video is trying to discourage. Personally I would have scored over half the "5" rides as a clean and over

time, checkers in this new era will score accordingly.

[sting32]

>>>>Snip<<< if you need to reread what I snipped, click http://www.trialscen...135#entry325719

As one of those dads/minders who is happily dragging my son all over this country and hoping to see him competing internationally some day, I have come to the conclusion that I can't get too wound up about what rules are finally chosen. We are ALL IN for this sport in any case, and will deal with the hand that is dealt, and learn how to compete within whatever rules are put in place.

This is a place that we'll think we can give feedback, try to gain/persuade others to like minded ideas. Granted, we're going to be stuck, eventually, if we can't get enough voices one way or the other... And yep, we'll deal with whatever rules, or we'll goto some other hobby.

I have a feeling FIM will have to reverse the decision, but then again, over there I guess it is more "dictatorship" as apposed to deciding with overwhelming support of the decision. This going ahead with the dumb idea with 50/50 almost tie is bull and you all know it, means to most people it was not overwhelmingly supported, and should been left alone until a bigger majority could agree on something to try.

I guess I just see and hear more people feeling like I do, maybe not exactly but close. And as usuall, big names seem to mean more votes than people like me, who will finally blow his stack and post on here at some point. Or we'll quietly move on, I guess.

No Stop caused a whole bunch of BS calls to happen back in the day, so they dropped it, so that if for nothing else, Scorekeepers no longer had to "guess" if rider A did or didn't fail, because you know as well as I do watching those videos were talking hard to tell differences.... ALL of this, which changes the outcome of who's the best. My problem is, if you let this doubtful quantity of calls to to not only get started, then continue, that us dumb as hell. and how many times have you had to judge sections from some place 20 yards away, not like that camera view... while they're working a turn or what not. Right now all I worry about is did he dab, did he run out of bounds, did he cross his tracks, which are FREAKING provable, not "guessable" as long as you are seeing it. But unlike the camera position in the video, are you going to be able to perceive that every nuance, from up above where the section ends?

We can't even have highly educated, highly trained judges, who have to "decide" if the word "is" mean what it means. Then I wager, these same "Judges" after even a year or 2 of training, are going to have one HELLUVA time deciding the difference of the rides in the VIDEO, even if they had 24 trials to practice making the calls, and maybe have "replay" like we do in some pro sports!

This is why people that can see where this is heading, are like me, going "WTF?" why do this? where as those who think it will make the lines shorter, that balancing a bike and hoppng is NOT a skill, cant figure out why we hate the idea, of putting this much pressure and demand on our "Volunteer, unpaid and usually not trained" judges... Let alone try to ban a pretty dang impressive skill. I don't care I can only hop now and again anyhow...

There is a clear and present history, let alone danger... As I know, we've had those people now with "stop rules" in place, fail to judge correctly.... I know, because one judge at a nationals "felt" that if anyone stopped for any reason in his section, it was a five, even though he'd been given instructions and whatever training on judging they give, he still gave out fives.

I tell you, if im looking to compete in nationals, and I drive 500 or even 12 miles to an event, and mine and others, but not everyone's results are blown, doe to crap calls.... just like crooked referees at a basket ball game, don't you worry, the lines for the sections will have fewer riders. Because we all know it becomes "politcal" just like I mentioned before, Raga was almost unknown, gets stop points "judgement call" when on video he clearly didn't earn any. Plus in the USA how many times have you heard your stiffest competition complain to the judges that they mmissed something when you rode a section? Anyway, back to Raga... Sure, young and determined he kept riding and eventually became the best rider in the world, but some, I'm too old to want to spend my hard earned money and energy, to put up with that crap. I wont overcome that. I feel if nothing else, professional riders will Lose sponsorship alone due to bad calls? lose your ride? I just think it is asking for more problems than it can possibly fix.

[steve fracy]

Well, for 2013, NATC carries on as in past years, with Stop Allowed, so for the moment, we don't need to get too wrapped up in the emotion, we just need to be very thoughtful in regards to our future rules. Although, I have to admit, a highly emotional response is certainly tempting, regardless of which side of the debate you may fall on!

The dilemma NATC faces will be for 2014 and beyond. And that Dilemma really relates to our Pros, aspiring Pros, high level Expert riders (and the dads/minders that drag them or follow them around) who want to be competitive at a World level. If we really want to start to foster and encourage world level competitors here in the US, we are going to have to adopt the FIM regulations so our guys can compete at TDN and World Rounds.

I can already hear the argument that "there aren't many of those guys/gals who are interested in international competition, so we don't need to be concerned with what they do over there". But several of our younger riders, especially some of the current Pros and Experts, are driven by the desire to test themselves against the world, and if NATC doesn't adopt FIM regulations at some stage, our riders will be disadvantaged on the international stage. I expect that the discussions this year relating to the rules in 2014 will be very interesting.

As one of those dads/minders who is happily dragging my son all over this country and hoping to see him competing internationally some day, I have come to the conclusion that I can't get too wound up about what rules are finally chosen. We are ALL IN for this sport in any case, and will deal with the hand that is dealt, and learn how to compete within whatever rules are put in place.

Great post here! As a former National competitor, and father of a current one, my feelings are similar! I have seen the rules change several times over the 40yrs I have been riding. I give the FIM credit, because like it or not, there is a problem in our sport internationally. Even though many of us are use to the current rules in North America, entries have dwindled over the years, there is no denying that. NO stop may NOT be the answer, but, its easy to critisize. They are trying to address the problem!

As a rider though, it makes no sense to waste energy on moaning about how it isnt gonna work. As a rider and Pro athlete, you adapt, practise, invent new techniques to push the limits of the rules and take advantage of them. That is just a natural instinct of any athlete. We will ride stop allowed here this year, but I have no doubt that next year we will all be riding no stop! So after the very last event of this year, we will be practising No stop techniques.

I really hope that anything can be done to get more people involved! Its only better for everyone! More people = more bikes sold= more money for the importers and manufacturers= more $$$ available for sponsorship = more riders going to events! Seems like a no brainer for me!

[0007]

I'm with Steve, it's not a rider issue anyway, put it in a different context

A pro MMA fighter and they and they put in a rule that says no more elbows.......

Just adjust and move along

I would hate to be a checker this year, holy crap there's gonna be some squeeling but it really is up to the rider to simply NOT leave it up to the judges

If you put someone in a position where they have to make a decision, sooner or later there will be fingers pointed and mistakes made, the stopping habit will just have to be broken

I am actually kinda sad though, stopping and hopping is really what sets trials apart from every other Motorsport, it's a signature and I enjoy watching it all happen

[northernnorm]

After further review it seems IF you are on just 1 wheel then SOMETIMES you can pause for .5 to .9 seconds . Instead of a five just mark the card with a golden ? when it is so close to call . Then at the end of the day use the # of ? marks to break any ties.

[jse]

I have my own personal feelings about the FIM rule changes but am of the opinion that I'm going to wait final judgement to see how it actually works in operation.

We have two sets of rules, no-stop and stop-allowed, here in the U.S. for Vintage/Modern events and I don't see either set "destroying the Sport". I'm hoping the

NATC does not blindly follow the FIM but responds to their constituants needs/wants, whatever they are, rather than ideology.

Jon

[old trials fanatic]

OK not for once passing a judgement because everybody knows where i stand on this but have you guys watched a recent video of the SSDT, one of if not the premier event in the Trials year, an event which is run to non stop rules ? It proves if the sections are laid out correctly with non stop in mind using natural terrain instead of micky mouse man made obsticles then it works. Please dont tell me you dont have suitable terrain in the US because i just wont believe you.

So just dont get how it can work for one international event, whose competitors also ride stop allowed in their own countries, and not work everywhere?

Surely proves the "arguement" is purely down to personal preference

[zippy]

OTF

I have tried to watch recent videos of the SSDT and quite honestly I find them rather boring and have a difficult time watching more than a minute or two. They seem quite a bit like watching enduro but not as fast and exciting.

I think the SSDT has such a large entry is due to the tradition and history of the event and to be able to say "I rode that event". I don't think it has anything to do with whether it is No stop or Stop allowed.

Trials ultimately is about control of the machine.

That is why I believe that stop and balance is part of trials.

Also choosing a line and sticking with it is part of trials.

Choosing exactly where you hop the rear tire to the right or left and then doing it is a part of trials.

I still believe the following is the best compromise to merge the two sets together.

Stop and balance = 0

Footing while moving = 1 (additional footing adding up to 3)

Stop with foot down = 5 (those that want no stop will see that a type of stop will be penalized, those that want stop allowed will see that at least the stop determination will be less often and only matters if a foot is down)

Can we all agree that stop with foot down makes you a human kickstand, you're bike already has one of those and can do it without your help. Therefore you have lost control.

Bikes progress in design and abilities, rules should also evolve to incorporate the changes to the equipment. Trials is unique and we should keep it that way, instead of comparing it to other sports or trying to make it like other motor sports (or try to reclaim the "good old days"). We need to get spectators and riders to understand and appreciate what makes trials different and then we will see an increase in participation.

Yes, if other organizations adopt the no stop rules I will ride to no stop rules and still have fun, not sure how hard I will try to win, but as a member of Team WGASA the focus is FUN!! But if we don't express our opinions on the topic the governing bodies will never know what their "customers" think of the service provided.

Personally I don't care if the sections are set up differently to accomodate the no stop rules, I just don't like no stop, it eliminates an entire set of skills from being used.

[old trials fanatic]

OTF

I have tried to watch recent videos of the SSDT and quite honestly I find them rather boring and have a difficult time watching more than a minute or two. They seem quite a bit like watching enduro but not as fast and exciting.

I think the SSDT has such a large entry is due to the tradition and history of the event and to be able to say "I rode that event". I don't think it has anything to do with whether it is No stop or Stop allowed.

Trials ultimately is about control of the machine.

That is why I believe that stop and balance is part of trials.

Also choosing a line and sticking with it is part of trials.

Choosing exactly where you hop the rear tire to the right or left and then doing it is a part of trials.

I still believe the following is the best compromise to merge the two sets together.

Stop and balance = 0

Footing while moving = 1 (additional footing adding up to 3)

Stop with foot down = 5 (those that want no stop will see that a type of stop will be penalized, those that want stop allowed will see that at least the stop determination will be less often and only matters if a foot is down)

Can we all agree that stop with foot down makes you a human kickstand, you're bike already has one of those and can do it without your help. Therefore you have lost control.

Bikes progress in design and abilities, rules should also evolve to incorporate the changes to the equipment. Trials is unique and we should keep it that way, instead of comparing it to other sports or trying to make it like other motor sports (or try to reclaim the "good old days"). We need to get spectators and riders to understand and appreciate what makes trials different and then we will see an increase in participation.

Yes, if other organizations adopt the no stop rules I will ride to no stop rules and still have fun, not sure how hard I will try to win, but as a member of Team WGASA the focus is FUN!! But if we don't express our opinions on the topic the governing bodies will never know what their "customers" think of the service provided.

Personally I don't care if the sections are set up differently to accomodate the no stop rules, I just don't like no stop, it eliminates an entire set of skills from being used.

Eloquently put p.o.v. even though i'm pro non stop i respect your opposing p.o.v. and wish all the other anti non stop posts were so well thought out.

[1shy]

OK not for once passing a judgement because everybody knows where i stand on this but have you guys watched a recent video of the SSDT, one of if not the premier event in the Trials year, an event which is run to non stop rules ? It proves if the sections are laid out correctly with non stop in mind using natural terrain instead of micky mouse man made obsticles then it works. Please dont tell me you dont have suitable terrain in the US because i just wont believe you.

So just dont get how it can work for one international event, whose competitors also ride stop allowed in their own countries, and not work everywhere?

Surely proves the "arguement" is purely down to personal preference

I think It's about 15 years since the event went back to no stop with a full entry every year since it did, that's about 4,050 riders with quite a few world riders also competing. I have not seen one post in that time from any rider stating it was better when you could stop and hop.

[zippy]

OTF,

It is not very often that any post I make is refered to as "eloquent " or "well thought out". So for that I would like to say thank you.

I would like to see some sort of way to meld the two styles together into one. I see and understand benefits and skills required from both styles Stoppy Hoppy and No Stop. Would melding them together be a perfect fix and make everyone happy.......No. But maybe the majority would be able to at least agree on that set of rules.

We want more participation, to me that means riders, observers and spectators. In order to get more of all three the rules need to be easily and readily understood by them. Ever try to explain all the possible ways to get a 5 to someone who has only ridden motocross?

Oh well, FIM says outdoor World rounds are No Stop. I just hope that is where the rule stays and does not leak into national or local organizations. I have already been told by one rider if MOTA goes No Stop, then he is done competing. Would be a shame too, he's fun to watch crash,........ummm I mean give it his all when he rides.

[old trials fanatic]

Good point made by zippy above.

I another post on the same subject i mentioned that i had packed in trials in the late 80's because the sections to me had got silly with massive steps, drop offs and what people now call splats, god i hate that term, and at that time i lost interest in trials because to me it was becoming a sport that had lost it's allure there was no beauty and finesse in it anymore all the nuances had gone just rev the nuts off it a dump the clutch. Trials became more about the size of your gonads and less of a thinking mans game and strategy counted for naught. 20 years on and i discovered the world of Classic trials all run non stop and i was hooked again on thinking mans sections beauty control and finesse the rest is history. So thats wher i come from and obviously why i'm a non stop man.

In the 20 years between trials i went off to work in the ski industry and one of the things i just couldnt understand was the obsession with the majourity of snowboarders in buggering about in the board park all day. I mean there was this massive ski zone covering 4 valleys and miles upon miles of runs and superb off piste and all they did all day was prat about in a half pipe and try to skid down a pole derrr. So i taught myself to snowboard between jobs and i still didnt get it prefering to cover the whole mountain not just a small corner of it. Now the preocupation with mickey mouse man made sections in trials to me reflects the self same thing and i feel that is why we have the preocupation with hoping and boping and general buggering about with man made sections instead of riding what nature gave us. Dont really know if i've explained that very well?

I can see that to some, because i suppose they dont know any better, this is what trials is. To others they think differently because they have experienced a different way to do things. What zippy says does make sense if you want to combine the two but is it time we just recognised that like skiing and snowboarding the two "sports", though similar in so many ways, are just different and therefore we just have to try to make efforts to co exist in the same world and let people decide which persuit they wish to follow because that is the one that appeals the most to them?

Does it have to be one way or another? why cant there be stop allowed clubs and non stop clubs? Perhaps non stop could be called Classic Trials and stop allowed Progressive Trials ? Just a thought

Edited March 4, 2013 by old trials fanatic