pete_scorpa3 Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 We are struggling with the additional requirements stipulated by the MSA for the Colmore Cup on 3rd March. The £2.75 per rider isn't a problem, we've put the entry fee up to cover this. Producing a map and sending it with the completed paperwork has been easy. (I know I did this.) Checking that the route doesn't follow/cross any footpaths, restricted byways etc is a little harder, but has now been completed. But.... how on earth can we send a letter to every houshold within 100m of the 28 mile route? It's almost impossible withthe man power we have available. More worrying still is our LDT later in the year, this is 75 miles round. What are other clubs doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andat Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 We've been pondering this dilema too; and are trying to conjur up something that fits in with this advice taken from the ACU website. "If I Organise a Trials Event with no Fixed Starting point and there is No Fixed Route, do I need to get MSA Authorisation? In a word – no. If for example you were organising a Trials event with a Course that included some use of the public highway and consisted of say – twelve groups of four sub-sections each of which riders had to attempt 36 (therefore not having to visit them all) and the riders were able to sign on at the Group of their choice – and there was no designated route for them to follow, there would be no requirement for this type of event to apply for MSA Authorisation." We will have a Car Park at the start and invite riders to sign-on at a group of their choice "but whilst you are here you might as well sign on now". We will provide an "advisory" route which will be clearly marked. There will be 44 sections, 4 of which not even Mr Bou would attempt. No time limit but sections will close at a given time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digger144 Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 andat i think you are on dodgy ground here go onto msa website for clarification for route, this is now the law as we found when we organised our ldt. as for visiting every household a bit of common sense is needed here, these regs really are drawn up for night time car rallies, i think more problems would be caused by running willy nilly all over the place. householders we visited were suprisingly supportive especially when we said it was a charity event Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabie Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 stupidly we've been doing this for the 10+ years of running our LDTs ie a) posting a note at start and end of each byway and posting said note at every household on route. we end up doing multiple "green lane runs" of our green laneing crew, plus several people in cars doing these leaflet drops. i think (i would have to check) that they only leaflet the houses on the green lanes rather than the main road through the centre of town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 (edited) The following types of events receive automatic authorisation, it need not be applied for Type B - An event on which no merit is attached to completing the event with the lowest mileage, and in which as respects such part of the event is held on the Public Highway, there are no performance tests and no route, and competitors are not timed or required to visit the same places, except that they may be required to finish at the same place by a specified time. Type C - An event in which, as respects such part of the event as is held on the Public Highway, merit attaches to a competitor’s performance only in relation to good road behavior and compliance with the Highway Code. I'm no legal expert but couldn't a trial be categorised as either of these. Type B is a single lap road trial. The 'route' is advisory only, competitors can use their own route to get from point to point if they wish, there are no checkpoints, the route isn't timed Type C is so wide open that you could say that if a competitor isn't reported for non-compliance with the highway code, they are merited with a finisher's award in the event. There has to be some scope in using either of these two for automatic approval? Edited January 21, 2013 by woody 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted January 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 I've just spent another three hours preparing the required information to send to the Police. It doesn't help that the route covers two different constabularies. But the PR requirements are huge, I really don't know how we are going to comply with this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totalshell Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 back in the 80's this was a stipulation for road rallies at night.. we used to make a token effort. close to junctions, control points, starts and finishes etc only issue we ever had was a guy who used to get his shotgun out above pateley bridge!! the acu really need to have a word with the msa for clarity etc. i cant see any of the ldt car trials i do following this nor stumping up 2.75 a car when entries fees are only 30 quid.. the passing of a 120 bike trial on an A road through a village centre will go un noticed but the work involved would be enourmous and of no value. i think of ilkleys sammy miller round that three times passes through pateley bridge in the day. i suspect over a 1000 homes might qualify for a letter in the post... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdmc Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 Is your Club a member of the ACU? If so log onto thier web site and follow the MSA link There is a contact name and number. This is what we pay the ACU for - assistance!! Lets use them before the 'barrack room lawyers' start making up their own interpretation of the rules ........However, for organisers who are new to this system are urged to liaise through the ACU Office: Debbie Walmsley ACU House Wood Street Rugby Warks CV21 2YX Tel: 01788 566419 Email: dw@acu.org.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted January 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 Yep, spoke to Debbie at the start of this process early December. She said "I will help if I can, but you probably know more about thsi than I do." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wri5hty Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 You have slightly disheartened me with this one Pete. I'm seeking permission for the Cleveland on March 24th. So i am a couple of weeks behind you in the process. Thought I had done most the hard stuff already, looks like im wrong. I hope you get it all sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andat Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 The following types of events receive automatic authorisation, it need not be applied for Type B - An event on which no merit is attached to completing the event with the lowest mileage, and in which as respects such part of the event is held on the Public Highway, there are no performance tests and no route, and competitors are not timed or required to visit the same places, except that they may be required to finish at the same place by a specified time. Type C - An event in which, as respects such part of the event as is held on the Public Highway, merit attaches to a competitor’s performance only in relation to good road behavior and compliance with the Highway Code. I'm no legal expert but couldn't a trial be categorised as either of these. Type B is a single lap road trial. The 'route' is advisory only, competitors can use their own route to get from point to point if they wish, there are no checkpoints, the route isn't timed Type C is so wide open that you could say that if a competitor isn't reported for non-compliance with the highway code, they are merited with a finisher's award in the event. There has to be some scope in using either of these two for automatic approval? As I spend most of my working life interpreting and applying contract law, I am pretty sure that when the ACU advise on their website (quote) "If I Organise a Trials Event with no Fixed Starting point and there is No Fixed Route, do I need to get MSA Authorisation? In a word – no. If for example you were organising a Trials event with a Course that included some use of the public highway and consisted of say – twelve groups of four sub-sections each of which riders had to attempt 36 (therefore not having to visit them all) and the riders were able to sign on at the Group of their choice – and there was no designated route for them to follow, there would be no requirement for this type of event to apply for MSA Authorisation." which clearly falls into category Type B - An event on which no merit is attached to completing the event with the lowest mileage, and in which as respects such part of the event is held on the Public Highway, there are no performance tests and no route, and competitors are not timed or required to visit the same places, except that they may be required to finish at the same place by a specified time. then there appears to be some room for manouvre by organising the event in such a way that fits this category. The main criteria seem to be no time limit (although you may have a fixed finishing time), no prescribed route and no need for competitors to attempt every section (hence the need to throw in a killer section or two) and a finally (and less practicable) a facility to allow competitors to start at the place of their choice. As I said we are still working on this and would be interested to see how other clubs "get round the MSA authorisation" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted January 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 As I said we are still working on this and would be interested to see how other clubs "get round the MSA authorisation" We are not trying to get round it at all. We are prepared to do exactly what it requires..... providing this is actually possible. And that's our dilema, it is almost impossible to achieve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 We are not trying to get round it at all. We are prepared to do exactly what it requires..... providing this is actually possible. And that's our dilema, it is almost impossible to achieve. Is that not the intention ? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andat Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 andat i think you are on dodgy ground here go onto msa website for clarification for route, this is now the law as we found when we organised our ldt. as for visiting every household a bit of common sense is needed here, these regs really are drawn up for night time car rallies, i think more problems would be caused by running willy nilly all over the place. householders we visited were suprisingly supportive especially when we said it was a charity event Its been the law since 1969...its just some jobsworth at the MSA throwing his weight around. These rules were aimed at car rallies and long distance trials that use public highways (green lanes) as stages/sections. Trials do not use the public highway as part of the competition; the competitive element of a trial is held off the public highway; the public highway is merely used to transit between the competitive elements off road. Just saying... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andat Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 Is that not the intention ? I'm not sure it is but that is the inevitable consequence of sticking rigidly to one persons interpretation of the rules. I applaud any club who tries to do what the MSA are imposing on us, but I don't agree that it is strictly necessary. I think with a little bit of lateral thinking we can still run a "road trial" without MSA authorisation 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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