Msa Approval For Road Trials?

[digger144]

we need clarification from the acu. our ldt used sections on private land.as individuals we ride legally on the roads & lanes but as an organised event do really have to put up with all of this msa nonsense, posting notices on greenlanes is a good idea it keeps good relations with horse riders &walkers but the rest is over the top for the type of events we run,did the acu not fight our corner when this first came about,this could kill off road trials, what would happen if we ignored msa ,no permit i suppose

[andat]

we need clarification from the acu. our ldt used sections on private land.as individuals we ride legally on the roads & lanes but as an organised event do really have to put up with all of this msa nonsense, posting notices on greenlanes is a good idea it keeps good relations with horse riders &walkers but the rest is over the top for the type of events we run,did the acu not fight our corner when this first came about,this could kill off road trials, what would happen if we ignored msa ,no permit i suppose

I have heard from a reliable ACU source that the ACU have no stomach for a fight with the MSA over this; in any event we don't need to, we just need to run a trial within one of the exemption categories. It just needs a slightly different approach to what we used to do.

[old trials fanatic]

I'm not sure it is but that is the inevitable consequence of sticking rigidly to one persons interpretation of the rules. I applaud any club who tries to do what the MSA are imposing on us, but I don't agree that it is strictly necessary. I think with a little bit of lateral thinking we can still run a "road trial" without MSA authorisation

The AMCA as i understand it feel we dont need to get MSA authorisation so why do the ACU feel we do ?

Anyway why cant you just hold the trial and let riders decide the route they will take and the order they attempt the section groups. Just sign on at the start, sign on at each group and sign off back at the finish. Seems that the route and route markings are whats causing the problem. ACU MSA whatever cant stop you riding a legal bike on the highway and the "Trial" will be decided on the scores in the sections so who cares how the rider got there any more than how they got to the trial or which route they took to get to the start.

As long as they sign off before an appointed time cant see there would then be anything "they" can do you for?

[totalshell]

i cant for one minute imagine that the organisers of the rac rally or the lands end trial or le jog or wales rally gb.. write to or visit every address within 100m of the route from its starting point to its finishing point and everywhere inbetween..

for the wales rally gb.. do they mail to every home in conwy and llandudno.. they cant be more than 200m wide (100m either side of the road..) literally tens of thousands of people would have to be communicated with..

how then would rally gb prove that they had completed the task.. posting the letter wouldnt be good enough.. if i have a home in conwy but actually live in the wirral how would you inform me..how could you find me..how would you know which language/s i could or could not read..

clearly there is a simple alternative.. using the examples above but leaving out the insanity of choosing when you go to sections..

the public highway route between sections is free.. however should you wish to follow the shortest possible route between A and Z and all points between it is this..

the start is free and the finish is free however we reccomend the carpark behind the red lion for van/trailor parking..

you can start when you want and stop competing when you want

section 1 opens at 9.30 and closes at 11.30 section 2 opens at 9.35 and closes at 11.35 you can finish when you like where you like

any section not attempted whilst it is open will be penalised by the loss of marks according to the acu regulations..

Edited January 22, 2013 by totalshell

[pete_scorpa3]

Applying for MSA was a straight forward process. Couple of emails, some forms, a signed letter, a couple of tracings of maps and an agreement to pay £2.75 per rider prior to the event. No problem I thought. Probably took me three hours to complete.

Then the email detailing additional stipulations arrived. Another more detailed letter required, more tracings and a map, a list of officials. All prepared, printed and posted to four different places. Probably around three hours work again. This is starting to feel like a chore.

Now I need to sit back and wait to see if the authorities raise any concerns, objections or additional stipulations. Meanwhile the entries are flooding in.

I have to say that I'm not comfortable with all this, I won't sign to say a job has been done if it has not. And what happens then? Will the MSA withhold approval? Will the ACU then refuse to issue a permit? Will the trial be cancelled? Everyone looses if this happens, and not just for this trial. We've got two more big road trials this year.

I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that we've done enough.

[rabie]

Pete is you want to ring our Pete (Peter Burrell on 020 8300 5572 (after 4:00pm) or email pj.burrell@btinternet.com) who has done all this for over 10+ years to talk over any of this.

to my knowledge the only issues are the known local problem lanes, or if there events using the same lane on the same days, etc

as to fighting the MSA, as i understand the issue, the ACU have looked at it, taken advice, looks like the law dates back to the 1960s and we've no leg to stand on trying to fight it because the ship has sailed so long ago. advice from insurers and legal is concerning because it may expose the organiser and the rider to legal issues because of the exclusion clauses in respective policies (ie one would be conducting an illegal event).

[totalshell]

what do you actually get for the 2.75?

[pete_scorpa3]

Here is a copy of a letter received by our club today from the ACU.

I hope that you will all find this clear and decisive and will put this issue 'to-bed' once and for all.

Dear All

During the ACU Ltd Board meeting yesterday, your Directors had further discussions regarding the MSA Authorisation, its process and the affect it might have on some of our events.

Whilst we recognise that the Motor Vehicles (Competitions and Trials) Regulations 1969 is UK legislation as laid down by the government under the Statutory Instrument No 414 of 1969 and the MSA were appointed by the Department of Transport as their Sole Agent to ensure that any motoring event which utilises or uses part of the Public Highway is subject to authorisation under the legislation, your Board have decided to have further discussions with Alan Kind and other recognised experts as well as seeking further legal opinion regarding the MSA’s interpretation of the law.

We are also informed that some of our Clubs are aware of the AMCA’s stance on this issue in that they have decided to advise their affiliated Clubs NOT to apply for MSA Authorisation for motorcycle Trials using the Public Highway to travel between groups of observed sections. Their view is to ‘let sleeping dogs lie, motorcycle trials have not required MSA Authorisation since 1969 so why start now? And that they intend to review this situation after six months.

A very important point to note…………….……………

Please do not be under any illusion - in order to comply with UK legislation - the AMCA , IOPD and any other motor sport organisation that utilises the public highway for their events are subject to the Motor Vehicles (Competitions and Trials) Regulations Act of 1969 – the AMCA or any other organisation are not exempt from this.

As the responsible Governing Body, recognised as such by the UK Government and the FIM, the ACU will not suggest to our Clubs that there is ‘no need to apply and we will review the situation in six months’.

What we will do is have further discussions with the parties outlined above and look at the 1969 Act which we believe is open for interpretation and then if appropriate challenge the MSA on their interpretation of the law.

I will keep you posted of developments moving forward.

With kind regards

Gary Thompson MBE BEM

General Secretary

Telephone: 01788 566414

Fax: 01788 573585

Website: acu.org.uk

[wri5hty]

Well that helps no end. Pete when you sent your list of officials did this have to include observers, really hope not as we are usually still getting the last couple the week before.

[pete_scorpa3]

Well that helps no end. Pete when you sent your list of officials did this have to include observers, really hope not as we are usually still getting the last couple the week before.

Best sit on the fence and make all the right noises, hope the problem goes away.

If (that's IF) I've done it correctly, then the list of officials that will be present at the event are listed as:

• Stratford Club Chairman
  
• Clerk of the Course
  
• Secretary of the Meeting
  
• MSA Liaison Officer
  
• PR Officer
  
• Riders (Travelling Marshalls) x2
  
• Observers in Charge of Groups x3
  
• Last Man.
  

This should give enough names and mobile numbers to sort out any problem at any point of the event if needed. I hope this is enough/correct. Who knows? At the Colmore we have 40 observers and 40 punchers (that's positions, some people help twice) plus other officials, so it would be impossible to provide accurateadvance contact details for every one present on the day.

I can say, that if we need to do much more than this to satisfy the MSA, then it is highly likely that this will be the last road trial we run. Remember, the Colmore is only 28 miles, our Miller round is more like 40 and our LDT is 75+.

I really do hope we've got it sussed now, there's not a lot left in reserve. And we are lucky, we've got a good team of workers. Some clubs run with just two or three organisers.

Pete

[woody]

Re: the ACU letter, they're are looking at ways of exempting trials from the act

The act has to be open to interpretation, so let's hope they find a loophole.

This legislation is utterly uneccessary for road trials where the competition itself takes place away from public roads. It could be argued that using your bike to get from group to group on a road trial isn't any different from riding your bike from home to a closed circuit event and then home again. You're only on the road to travel to the event, not to compete. Not the same thing at all as speed events conducted on public roads such as car rallies

I'd wager the trials reference in the title of the act relates to vehicle speed trials that take place on public roads. Surely this act is being wrongly applied - hopefully..!!??

[wri5hty]

Thanks Pete. At least I have a slight idea of things to come.

Cheers. Paul.

[andat]

Re: the ACU letter, they're are looking at ways of exempting trials from the act

The act has to be open to interpretation, so let's hope they find a loophole.

This legislation is utterly uneccessary for road trials where the competition itself takes place away from public roads. It could be argued that using your bike to get from group to group on a road trial isn't any different from riding your bike from home to a closed circuit event and then home again. You're only on the road to travel to the event, not to compete. Not the same thing at all as speed events conducted on public roads such as car rallies

I'd wager the trials reference in the title of the act relates to vehicle speed trials that take place on public roads. Surely this act is being wrongly applied - hopefully..!!??

Our club has had the same letter...lets hope common sense prevails. In the mean time I am convinced that it is perfectly legal to run a trial using the Queens highway provided: a) you do not have performance tests on the highway, a ) no time limit, c) no fixed route, d) no mandatory starting point...I've just been looking at the champ regs and sidecars and S3's must have riders grouped and start in order. If these regs are removed then champ trials could be run on looser regs without the need for MSA approval.....

Edited January 23, 2013 by andat

[pete_scorpa3]

a) you do not have performance tests on the highway, a ) no time limit, c) no fixed route, d) no mandatory starting point...I've just been looking at the champ regs and sidecars and S3's must have riders grouped and start in order. If these regs are removed then champ trials could be run on looser regs without the need for MSA approval.....

This idea certainly is worth considering, but it wouldn't be simple to put in place.

The Colmore Cup has 40 sections at 10 different groups around a 28 mile lap. Allowing riders to start and finish wherever they like and at any time would create a number of issues.

Every section would have to be manned all day, observers wouldn't know when the last man had been through, riders could pick and choose which sections to ride, they would naturally leave the rocky ones to last and do the muddy ones first. Some would inevitably get lost and end up riding round and round the countryside looking for the sections. There would be lots of places with two way traffic, and local residents would have bikes going back and forth in either direction for hours. Not just one per minute for 110 minutes.

The furthest clean tie break would also be lost and the results could not be announced on the day, as the punch cards would be spread all around the course.

I'm not saying it couldn't work, but it would need a great deal of carefull thought.

[andat]

This idea certainly is worth considering, but it wouldn't be simple to put in place.

The Colmore Cup has 40 sections at 10 different groups around a 28 mile lap. Allowing riders to start and finish wherever they like and at any time would create a number of issues.

Every section would have to be manned all day, observers wouldn't know when the last man had been through, riders could pick and choose which sections to ride, they would naturally leave the rocky ones to last and do the muddy ones first. Some would inevitably get lost and end up riding round and round the countryside looking for the sections. There would be lots of places with two way traffic, and local residents would have bikes going back and forth in either direction for hours. Not just one per minute for 110 minutes.

The furthest clean tie break would also be lost and the results could not be announced on the day, as the punch cards would be spread all around the course.

I'm not saying it couldn't work, but it would need a great deal of carefull thought.

All perfectly valid points and I am sure that provided you do not have a compulsory route with checkpints but provide a "suggested" route (which is what actually hapens now) and that sections will close at a certain time then it could be made to work. As far as riders getting lost, in my experience this happens now anyway. Tie breaks can be decided on a special test (e.g timed 20 yard dead engine push). You can get round the "not having to attempt all the sections" quite easily; either make one or two impossible or site them so far away from the suggested route that no-one will bother to visit them. Obviously riders will not be timed and can start where and when they want...but if you suggest in the regs that there are car parking and refreshment facilities at the finish and a suggestion that it might be a convenient place to start (without precluding any one from starting elsewhere) then I am sure most will assemble at the finish and make it their starting point; the "suggested" route can be marked from there.