pete_scorpa3 Posted February 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 I have now completed everything that I've been asked to do (I hope) and notified the MSA that this is the case. John Collins was correct when he said the ACU would issue the permit without MSA approval, we do now have the permit, so the trial will run. I am confident that the MSA will give us approval, in which case I will summarise exactly what I have done and post the process on here. That way, others can compare it to what they have done, or possibly even follow the steps that I have taken. We will see. Fingers crossed that approval is granted. Pete 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsandifords Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 We are just going through the same for the Chris Carter Trial Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totalshell Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 (edited) a little cautionary note regarding the stance of some groups to msa authorisation .. a watch and wait approach and the totally ignore of others.. i have heard of quotes of ' its not a problem its a civil thing and the worst you can get is a small fine.. how timely then in this months MSA news that two motor car clubs should find them selves in front of the msa for failing to comply with the authorisation they were given. both clubs were heard seperately both clubs it was agreed held well organised events HOWEVER both clubs had submitted routes that though in one clubs case were exactly the same as that run both clubs had repositioned controls ..slightly.. these infringements came to light when msa officials re checked all paperwork post event and noted the slight differences.. both clubs were found guilty and banned from organising any motorsport for between two and three yearssuspended for two years and given financial penalties of 250 pounds.. so it seems that the MSA is hard on its own member clubs.. Edited February 8, 2013 by totalshell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 (edited) a little cautionary note regarding the stance of some groups to msa authorisation .. a watch and wait approach and the totally ignore of others.. i have heard of quotes of ' its not a problem its a civil thing and the worst you can get is a small fine.. how timely then in this months MSA news that two motor car clubs should find them selves in front of the msa for failing to comply with the authorisation they were given. both clubs were heard seperately both clubs it was agreed held well organised events HOWEVER both clubs had submitted routes that though in one clubs case were exactly the same as that run both clubs had repositioned controls ..slightly.. these infringements came to light when msa officials re checked all paperwork post event and noted the slight differences.. both clubs were found guilty and banned from organising any motorsport for between two and three yearssuspended for two years and given financial penalties of 250 pounds.. so it seems that the MSA is hard on its own member clubs.. Certainly goes to prove Petes stance is correct. How many other clubs who have organised and run road trials so far this year, never mind the ones that intend to, will have complied or as above have decided to run and be dammed ? Very interesting and thought provoking post totalshell. Edited February 8, 2013 by old trials fanatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted February 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 I'm pleased to say that approval has now been given by the MSA for the Colmore Cup. I've done my very best to comply with every requirement, whether I could have got away with doing less I do not know. But here is a summary of what I did. Downloaded the relevant forms and guidance notes from the ACU web site. Contacted the relevant RLO (Route Liaison Officers) for both areas that the event will be entering, to confirm there was no date clash. Completed the application form stating things like start times, mileage etc. Using OS maps scale 1:50,000 and tracing paper, I traced the route that the trial will follow, clearly marking the start/finish, the points where the route leaves and rejoins to public highway and the times that the first rider arrives/leaves each location. The tracing also requires two grid lines NS & EW to use as datum points. I produced a letter formally confirming that the club has permissions from land owners to use each group of sections. I then contacted Debbie at the ACU to inform her of what I had done. Before sending the information, I copied everything five times (you will see why in a moment.) The information was then sent to the MSA by recorded delivery. Arriving no later than three months prior to the event. The MSA responded fairly quickly with additional stipulations: 1. Supply written conformation of the exact route including a tracing for one (and a map for the other) police forces responsible for the roads being used 2. Supply written conformation of the exact route including tracings to both RLO's. 3. Carry out PR. To include contacting in-person every home owner within 500m of a section and informing all homes along the route and confirm in writing that this has been done 4. Supply a list of key officials and their mobile telephone details, to be used by the MSA if contact the organisers on the day of the event. 5. Research and confirm in writing that the necessary authorisations have been given to use any public footpath, restricted byway or bridleway. 6. Describe how the club will be managing spectators for the evetnt. 7. Confirm in writing that these stipulations have been carried out and that no objections have been raised. Both RLO's formally responded quite quickly with no additional actions. One Police force responded via email within a few days stating that they required the following: i. Confirm in writing that all machine being used in the event are fully road legal and properly insured. ii. Confirm in writing that there will be no stops of check points on the public highway. iii. Apply to the local District Council to apply for a TEN notice (Cost £43). The local council was informed and they did not require a TEN notice. Once these stipulations had been dealt with, the Police then gave their permission for the event to proceed; but worthy of note, in the official letter from the Chief Constable, that also stated that all machines must be fully road legal and properly insured. The other Police force, have not responded. Once I had all of the neccessary paperwork, Letters from RLO's, Police, Club PR Officer and Club ROW Officer, I drew up a letter detailing exactly what we had done and enclosed the paperwork.I then copied the lot (for my records) and sent it to the MSA by recorded delivery. Approximately a week later, I recieved and email from the MSA confirming that approval had been granted to run the event and that they will be sending an invoice in the next week or two. I am happy and relieved to have been given MSA approval, as I said above, I may have done too much, I don't know. What other clubs do is up to them! I am concerned that we were given the ACU permit before MSA approval was granted, but JC has delt with that elsewhere in this thread. I also think that the MSA are taking £302.50 for doing very little, but again that's not for us to worry about, we've simply put the entry fee up to cover this. It's the riders who are worse off by £2.75 each. I guess I have spent about 15 to 20 hours completing the MSA process, (and a lot of printer ink) the next event will be quicker as I know what to expect. It has taken me away from organising the trial itself, but we are lucky that there are others who will help. Not every club has helpers they can delegate this job to. I hope my summary of the process makes sense, maybe it will help others to understand the process a little better. Fingers crossed that the weather allows us to run the trial after all this! Pete 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wri5hty Posted February 9, 2013 Report Share Posted February 9, 2013 Thanks for posting that pete it will be a great help for me. I really hope you get a weekend of sunshine you have earned it. Cheers Paul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 9, 2013 Report Share Posted February 9, 2013 Well done Pete. Mamouth task completed and approval obtained. I'm sure all that will be of great help to other organisers. Just now got to make sure everybody complys to the letter with the authourisation, see totalshells post above, especially the bit about route and the legality of the riders and bikes competing which is as we all know a very grey area when some trials riders and their bikes are concerned. However big respect due for all your hard work especially the contacting in person of every home owner within 500m of the route and sections i definately didnt envy you that one. The event definately deserves to be the massive sucess i am sure it will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted February 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2013 Just to clarify, we didn't contact every dwelling within 500m of the route, just those within 500m of a section. We notified homes around the course using other means. Knocking on every door around a 28 mile route would have been impossible, and raised unnecessary problems. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 9, 2013 Report Share Posted February 9, 2013 Sorry Pete my error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted February 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2013 Sorry Pete my error. No need to appologise, the RLO's for both areas that the Colmore passes through both said that contacting every house around the route directly would create too many objections. Mostly from people that wouldn't even notice the event was running. So with this in mind, we have carried out a more general notification in the area. Sometimes, a little less is worth a lot more. Pete 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totalshell Posted February 10, 2013 Report Share Posted February 10, 2013 (edited) these considerations show again that these 'rules' are designed for competetive events on the road. why on earth would every home within 500m of a section run on private land need notification? when applied to a control for a road rally then it becomes sensible but for a trial on private land.. back in the day (late 70's /80's) every home on a road rally was visited and even then there was objection by a good few which meant many blackspots and quiet zones been used on the route.. ( we are talking of 2 litre escorts with spot lights.. after midnight..) the acu seems to be taking a measured approach and pete scorpas work seems to cover all the basics... but to what end.. the msa pockets 302 quid for little or nothing and petes spent 20 hours tracing maps and writing letters ( one police force hasnt even acknowledged him) amusing that the other insisted he apply to the local council for an alcohol licence! on the positive side this does bring fresh awareness to the need for valid insurance.. and a legit sized number plate. although one year on a claasic lDT i rode the local coppers were stopping bikes and cars with very small number plates they waved other more sensible although technically inappropriate plates through. on all the MSA events i ve been done insurance has had to be purchased or a specific form signed declaring that insurance covers the vehicle. for road rallies i ve had to prove it as well. Edited February 10, 2013 by totalshell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2stroke4stroke Posted February 10, 2013 Report Share Posted February 10, 2013 "......contacting every house around the route directly would create too many objections. Mostly from people that wouldn't even notice the event was running." The very point I made earlier. Good luck with the event, having put in a disproportionate amount of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted February 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2013 "......contacting every house around the route directly would create too many objections. Mostly from people that wouldn't even notice the event was running." The very point I made earlier. Good luck with the event, having put in a disproportionate amount of work. Yes I agree with you, thankfully the RLO's for both area's agreed too. Had they insisted that we followed the stipulations to the letter, then that's just what we would have done. I just don't know how! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabie Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 on the positive side this does bring fresh awareness to the need for valid insurance.. ........................ . on all the MSA events i ve been done insurance has had to be purchased or a specific form signed declaring that insurance covers the vehicle. for road rallies i ve had to prove it as well. i personally think this is better than our current stance, where by we offer the rider the chance to take up extra RTA cover for a fee. some of my family are going to do an LDT this year, which we can't see the option to take up the RTA insurance (you can't buy it direct, it has to be via the club) so it make me think that 95%+ of the entry will be uninsured (because almost all - except MSM, etc - specifically exclude road trials) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted February 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 i personally think this is better than our current stance, where by we offer the rider the chance to take up extra RTA cover for a fee. some of my family are going to do an LDT this year, which we can't see the option to take up the RTA insurance (you can't buy it direct, it has to be via the club) so it make me think that 95%+ of the entry will be uninsured (because almost all - except MSM, etc - specifically exclude road trials) I agree. No insurance on the road is a very big no-no! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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