woody Posted January 26, 2013 Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 In that case you'd need MSA approval to get from home to an event and from an event back home as in every instance you are only using the road to get to an event that is held off road. In a road trial the road doesn't form part of the competition, unlike speed trials for cars which is what is was intended for. Travel on the road is purely to travel to and from locations where the event is held, so how does that differ from getting to and from a closed circuit event - especially if you ride your bike to the event instead of transporting it (yes, this is still done sometimes) As I mentioned before, it would be interesting to see what the two clubs holding the Normandale rounds next week have done to comply, also the Vic Brittain organisers in our centre which would also have been approved 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowbrow Posted January 26, 2013 Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 If you look at the 1969 Statutory Instrument (pasted below) specifically with regards to events that are pre-authorised, or to put it another way, exempt for requiring authorisation, was it ever the intention for observed trials that venture onto the public highway to be caught by this legislation? Authorisation of certain events 5. Any event of one of the following descriptions, that is to say:— (a)an event in which the total number of vehicles driven by the competitors does not exceed 12, being an event no part of which takes place within 8 days of any part of any other event in which the total number of vehicles driven by the competitors does not exceed 12 and where either the other event has the same promoter or the promoters of both events are members of the same club in connection with which the events are promoted; (b)an event in which no merit is attached to completing the event with the lowest mileage and in which, as respects such part of the event as is held on a public highway, there are no performance tests and no route and competitors are not timed or required to visit the same places; except that they may be required to finish at the same place by a specified time; ©an event in which, as respects such part of the event as is held on a public highway, merit attaches to a competitor's performance only in relation to good road behaviour and compliance with the Highway Code; (d)an event in which all the competitors are members of the armed forces of the Crown and which is designed solely for the purposes of their service training; is hereby authorised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted January 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 As soon as you sign on at the start of an event you are in it. Whether you use your bike or your van is irrelevant, you are in the event. This may invalidate your insurance, on your trials bike and even in your van, but that's a different issue. Once we as a club are using the road as part of our event, then we need (so we are told at the moment,) to go through MSA approval. This includes contacting the Police. As the Colmore crosses two constabularies, then we had to contact both areas. If the Police then come back and tell us we need to apply for a TEN before they will approve our application, then that is what I will do. For both area's if necessary. Now I am not saying I like it... I don't. And as I mentioned above, I don't know what other clubs have done. But if it is not done, then I will not say it has. And the trial WILL be cancelled. Our hands ate tied; that is unless the ACU agree to issue a permit without MSA approval. Others are talking about not applying, or just saying they've done this or that. Well that's up to them, everyone has to deal with this in their own way. At the moment, things are not looking very bright. And I do hope that the ACU will be proactive with this; in some way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tltel Posted January 26, 2013 Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 Hi pete-scorpa3. I do hope you get this sorted and I admire you for the time and effort you have put in to this to comply with MSA requirements. I also feel that the acu should jump in and get their legal department to clarify this for their members. There really should not be so many grey areas. When this event (and others) does go ahead I hope all those that turn up and ride appreciate how much work (unpaid) goes into organising it. TLTEL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabie Posted January 26, 2013 Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 why are you waiting for rugby to issue the permit? i know the TEC are shockingly slow compared to centres or MX (taking weeks not hours) to issue permits. the ACU permit should not rest upon MSA or other approval. the key test in my mind is are you (the C Of C, club, riders, etc) happy and confident you have fulfilled all your legal duties ??? it would appear that many clubs haven't been since 1969, yet nothing has arisen because of this (but since the chance exists, people are making their best efforts to meet the criteria). what ever you do, good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted January 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 why are you waiting for rugby to issue the permit? i know the TEC are shockingly slow compared to centres or MX (taking weeks not hours) to issue permits. I am not waiting for Rugby to issue the permit, I am trying to comply with all of the stipulations presented to me by the MSA. Once this is done to my satisfaction I will confirm to the MSA that everything is in place, they will then notify the ACU that the approval has been granted and the ACU will issue the permit. If the ACU issue the permit before I get MSA approval, then they have not followed their own process. I am still in hope that I will be able to get everything correctly in place, West Mercia Police have asked me to apply for a TEN fromthe local authorities which I will do, however I have still not heard back from Gloucestershire Police, they may require something completely different. And time is now starting to run out. As I keep saying, I will NOT sign to say something is done if it hasn't been and the trial will not run. the ACU permit should not rest upon MSA or other approval. the key test in my mind is are you (the C Of C, club, riders, etc) happy and confident you have fulfilled all your legal duties ??? it would appear that many clubs haven't been since 1969, yet nothing has arisen because of this (but since the chance exists, people are making their best efforts to meet the criteria). what ever you do, good luck! Some Clerk of the Course' may be happy to sign that everything has been done when it hasn't, that's their risk to take. I suspect that there will be a trial cancelled over this issue fairly shortly, I am hearing stories of clubs who are not going to apply for MSA. So it stands to reason that sooner or later a permit will be withheld, or maybe worse still, a trial will be stopped on the day becasue the MSA approval is not present. I do not want this to be the case for the Colmore, which is why I am jumping through hoops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted January 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 To summarise. I am trying to comply with all of the stipulations presented to me by the MSA If the ACU issue the permit before I get MSA approval, then they have not followed their own process. Some Clerk of the Course' may be happy to sign that everything has been done when it hasn't, that's their risk to take. I will NOT sign to say something is done if it hasn't been and the trial will not run. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totalshell Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 temporary event notice... your being led up the garden path.. TEN's are for extensions of licensing hours/ location.. as for the notifications when i asked of the long distance car trials community this is the reply i receieved Not sure where you get the "within 100m of a route from", but my copy of the MSA's PR guidelines states that for trials run between 07:00 & 22:00 the A, B and "yellow" roads require a "public notice" which to my translation means a sheet on the parish notice board. Additionally a written notification to any household within 500m of any point at which competitors may stop (ie a section start) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted January 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 temporary event notice... your being led up the garden path.. TEN's are for extensions of licensing hours/ location.. as for the notifications when i asked of the long distance car trials community this is the reply i receieved Not sure where you get the "within 100m of a route from", but my copy of the MSA's PR guidelines states that for trials run between 07:00 & 22:00 the A, B and "yellow" roads require a "public notice" which to my translation means a sheet on the parish notice board. Additionally a written notification to any household within 500m of any point at which competitors may stop (ie a section start) Well if that's the case then it's the West Mercia Police that are doing the leading for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Perhaps they feel if they can discourage by burying people with needless red tape they will not bother and thats another "issue" delt with for their rambling mates of the cheif constable. Must be nigh on impossible in Wales with their bike hating Welsh chief constable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Pete i'd be on the same page as you in terms of you need to do it by the book otherwise you leave yourself and the club at the mercy of the law if something goes wrong. However earlier in the thread somebody posted that the rule regarding contacting everybody as you have described it cant possibly be applied by say rally GB, its just not practical. So it may be worth checking out with a rally club if there is onenearby how they deal with it or ask MSA what rally GB provide? As for being part of big Daves red tape campaign, well yes it would be if our bikes were in any way defendable in terms of legality. We could be a lot more public about our sport if we didnt have so much to hide ! Why cant a trials rider fit a speedo ? probabaly weighs 1/2 kg ? Horn about the same Some of our riders leave the lights on why not all ? and is a quick detach legal number plate really beyond the wit of man? IF we sort the bikes out then we could perhaps send this to big Dave..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted January 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Pete i'd be on the same page as you in terms of you need to do it by the book otherwise you leave yourself and the club at the mercy of the law if something goes wrong. However earlier in the thread somebody posted that the rule regarding contacting everybody as you have described it cant possibly be applied by say rally GB, its just not practical. So it may be worth checking out with a rally club if there is onenearby how they deal with it or ask MSA what rally GB provide? As for being part of big Daves red tape campaign, well yes it would be if our bikes were in any way defendable in terms of legality. We could be a lot more public about our sport if we didnt have so much to hide ! Why cant a trials rider fit a speedo ? probabaly weighs 1/2 kg ? Horn about the same Some of our riders leave the lights on why not all ? and is a quick detach legal number plate really beyond the wit of man? IF we sort the bikes out then we could perhaps send this to big Dave..... Funny you shold mention this. I've heard more from the Police concerning this today, they have asked me to confirm that the machines taking part inthe event are all road legal. I have informed them that all machines are required to be fully road legal, however it is the riders responsibility to ensure that this is the case and not the organising clubs. Do I hear the sound of cans of worms being opened? I do hope this is going to end happily! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 I do hope this is going to end happily! Somehow I'm thinking not as the can of worms seems to be already open and crawling everywhere with this MSA issue. The more authorititive bodies that become involved, so the chances of objection and prohibition rise, especially if they start to take an interest in the bikes. It seems a road trial as we know it is teetering on the brink of a very deep precipice and if it topples over, it will never come back The ACU have provided an example of a format for a road trial, on their MSA page, that wouldn't require MSA authorisation. Why can't this format be adopted, or am I missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wri5hty Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 That happened to me with the Cleveland last year pete, I replied word for word the same as you. The police were happy with that and we didn't get a visit. We have made downward facing rear registration plates compulsory you wont start if you don't have one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wri5hty Posted January 29, 2013 Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 (edited) The problem with the acu exemption format is its dancing around a grey area, this will only become black and white when someone is in a big pile of the brown stuff. I totally understand why pete is trying to do it legit, I will be doing the same for the Cleveland. If both trials end up getting cancelled then so be it. I got into trials for the fun of it, started helping out because I realised it was required. Sadly with all the extra paper work and responsibility the fun is diminishing, but would still rather do that than possibly end up in court or watching every rider get fined for being part of a illegal event. What I do ask of the ACU is, if this is the way we have to do things in the future GET IT SIMPLIFIED. christ I fit carpets for a living I just want boxes to tick. Edited January 29, 2013 by wri5hty 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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