sparks2 Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) Hi Jerry As you may have seen from a later thread (Early Cota Club) I have gone / going through much the same process - early Cota restoration then hopefully road registration. In my opinion your Cota is of the later 'improved' Mk1 type with Amal carb and modified gearbox, not available before March 1969. The previous version had an IRZ carb and different inlet tract. Indeed, I have seen an earlier frame number than yours registered in September 1969. So I would suggest yours would have been registered about the same time. At this time practically all trials bikes were registered for the road. Although date of manufacture may differ from date of registration by some way. You could try Sandifords, or the Vintage Motorcycle Club in Burton on Trent can do it for you - check their website for details Hi Woody At this time (1968/1969) Sandifords were only Montesa dealers, not the importers. So it is unlikely they will provide a definative age (assuming the bike was not supplied by Sandifords as a dealer). The importers at the time were Montala Motors from Dartford Kent, aka the Brise family. A good many years ago I spoke to John Brise's surviving son - Tim Brise about the Montesa days -- he still then owned an earlyish Montesa Cota but could confirm that no records then existed (presumably all destroyed) from Montala Motors. The latest thinking is that the VMCC do not have a Montesa specialist (but I have not checked this myself). So the outlook is not promising for those of us looking to register/re-register an early Cota with no paperwork or plate. However I am determined that, if at all possible, my Cota will wear it's original registration number. Hi Jon The arrangement whereby Sandifords would supply the Northern half of the country and Montala Motors the Southern half started in late 1972 and finished with Sandifords taking over completely in early 1973, lasting only about 6 months. Keep in touch Kind Regards Sparks2 Edited February 13, 2013 by sparks2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 The VMCC are very helpful and are keen if people can provide info that helps them increase their records portfolio of old bikes. If you can provide them with copies of sales brochures showing pictures of the original bike that confirms its age, then as long as the pictures of your bike matches the brochure pictures, they'll usually issue a dating certificate. Annice is the girl / lady that deals with dating certificates and she is knowledgeable on the subject of documentation to acquire age related plates. A friend of mine has obtained dating certificates from them for both and Armstrong and Montesa 330 by sourcing and providing library / brochure pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparks2 Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 Thanks Woody That could be helpful and is very encouraging. Regards Sparks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerry t Posted February 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 Hi Jerry As you may have seen from a later thread (Early Cota Club) I have gone / going through much the same process - early Cota restoration then hopefully road registration. In my opinion your Cota is of the later 'improved' Mk1 type with Amal carb and modified gearbox, not available before March 1969. The previous version had an IRZ carb and different inlet tract. Indeed, I have seen an earlier frame number than yours registered in September 1969. So I would suggest yours would have been registered about the same time. At this time practically all trials bikes were registered for the road. Although date of manufacture may differ from date of registration by some way. I was only going on the readily available information on the net (Montesa web) which dates the frame number 1191 as November 1968.... As Mine is 1144 I was assuming, rightly or wrongly that it was earlier. All depends on the accuracy of the info found Versión cubos de 180 FECHA N BASTIDOR ELEMENTOS MODIFICADOS Jul. 1968 21M 0 Primera Cota 247 producida en serie. Mar. 1968 21M 500 Bastidor con "orejas" soporte guardabarros trasero Nueva guía cadena Nuevo escudo Tubo escape modificado Tubo admisión boca con dos esparragos Caja filtro aire modificada (3 tornillos) Nov. 1968 21M 1191 Guía cadena Versión cubos de 110 FECHA N BASTIDOR ELEMENTOS MODIFICADOS Abr. 1970 21M 1800 Nuevos estribos con sierra Nuevo tapón depósito con juntas tóricas Sillin modificado Cubos de rueda de 110 mm. Rueda dentada de Duraluminio Oct. 1970 21M 2505 Bridas suspensión delantera de Duraluminio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_ Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 I was only going on the readily available information on the net (Montesa web) which dates the frame number 1191 as November 1968.... As Mine is 1144 I was assuming, rightly or wrongly that it was earlier. All depends on the accuracy of the info found Versión cubos de 180 FECHA N BASTIDOR ELEMENTOS MODIFICADOS Jul. 1968 21M 0 Primera Cota 247 producida en serie. Mar. 1968 21M 500 Bastidor con "orejas" soporte guardabarros trasero Nueva guía cadena Nuevo escudo Tubo escape modificado Tubo admisión boca con dos esparragos Caja filtro aire modificada (3 tornillos) Nov. 1968 21M 1191 Guía cadena Versión cubos de 110 FECHA N BASTIDOR ELEMENTOS MODIFICADOS Abr. 1970 21M 1800 Nuevos estribos con sierra Nuevo tapón depósito con juntas tóricas Sillin modificado Cubos de rueda de 110 mm. Rueda dentada de Duraluminio Oct. 1970 21M 2505 Bridas suspensión delantera de Duraluminio There is a production timeline in English here http://www.rmmontesa...onofcota247.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparks2 Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 I was only going on the readily available information on the net (Montesa web) which dates the frame number 1191 as November 1968.... As Mine is 1144 I was assuming, rightly or wrongly that it was earlier. All depends on the accuracy of the info found Versión cubos de 180 FECHA N BASTIDOR ELEMENTOS MODIFICADOS Jul. 1968 21M 0 Primera Cota 247 producida en serie. Mar. 1968 21M 500 Bastidor con "orejas" soporte guardabarros trasero Nueva guía cadena Nuevo escudo Tubo escape modificado Tubo admisión boca con dos esparragos Caja filtro aire modificada (3 tornillos) Nov. 1968 21M 1191 Guía cadena Versión cubos de 110 FECHA N BASTIDOR ELEMENTOS MODIFICADOS Abr. 1970 21M 1800 Nuevos estribos con sierra Nuevo tapón depósito con juntas tóricas Sillin modificado Cubos de rueda de 110 mm. Rueda dentada de Duraluminio Oct. 1970 21M 2505 Bridas suspensión delantera de Duraluminio Hi Jerry Yes, it depends on the validity of the information one can find and the interpretation one can put on it (as people have found on Trials Central in the past). There will always be a degree of conjecture when it comes to frame numbers, dates of manufacture and dates of UK registration. However it is not inconceivable that the first of the 'improved' Mk1's were batch built towards the end of 1968, then have been on sale at the earliest in the UK 2 to 3 months later, then sold as required throughout the following months? The delay between build and the first UK registrations could perhaps be explained by the importers clearing existing stock, the time on the water, etc, etc. Hence, as I initially pointed out, dates of manufacture and UK registration may differ by a considerable margin. Hope all this helps (and is interesting). Regards sparks2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_ Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 I think that sparks has summed this up well. There is always going to be some delay between build and first registration, the length of which could be weeks, months or even years depending on a whole load of possible scenarios. It stands to reason therefore that a registration number is no precise measure of build date. I also agree that it is possible that one statement of information can be taken, and repeated often enough, so as to become accepted as gospel. To make life considerably easier for anyone wanting to register an early 247, the ideal would be to have an agreed list of frame numbers vs. build dates that the VMCC are happy to accept and use as the yardstick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerry t Posted February 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 I think that we are all in general agreement... Date of first registration can vary from date of manufacture by miles. As a Matra / Talbot dealer in the late 70's we (well.. my dad) had a 'new' Matra Rancho delivered for sale. For some reason the build date had to be checked with the factory. It turned out to be over 12 months old! Lets get the build dates etc agreed with the VMCC and one more make gets to keep its numbers or at least get an age related rather than a Q. I'll make the primary overtures, then its over to the experts Cheers Jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 There is a production timeline in English here http://www.rmmontesa...onofcota247.htm I've never seen a breakdown like that for the 247 Cota, only ever seen the listings that say 21Mxxxx is a 247 Cota. As that comes from a dealer that is a specialist in vintage Montesas, if the VMCC are happy to acknowledge that Rocky Mountain are a specialist, and there's no reason to think they wouldn't, then I think they'd be very happy to accept that listing as a basis for dating Cotas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triple_x Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 Hi My current Cota 247 was made in April and sold through a dealership in Cornwall in August. My original Cota bought in October 1968 was left the factory in September. I actually visited Montala to get a new gearbox cluster as the drive dogs in the gearbox we undersize, and, after one Trial (the Perce Simon) was unrideable. My bike was an orginal big hub with the IRZ and I never felt the need to upgrade to the Amal, there just did not appear to be much of an improvement. Good luck with the rebuild but pay patricular attention to the gearbox shims, for if you have too much end float the clutch can judder. 004" is the norm. I still regret selling my original after all this time. Regards Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerry t Posted February 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Little to add except... Managed a little ride last night! Very exciting, feels like proper progress. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerry t Posted March 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2013 Chris... Lost your email address due to computer hiccough... can you bang me a message at some time that's convenient. Buying mudguards next... Can't resist them any longer! Need a decent ride and with no rear there is mud n stuff flung everywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ask greeves Posted March 23, 2013 Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 Been watching this thread since the beginning, nobody noticed in the original picture, the bike has the wrong top yoke, big hub 247's should have a steel top yoke. Not an aluminium as in the photo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerry t Posted March 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 Been watching this thread since the beginning, nobody noticed in the original picture, the bike has the wrong top yoke, big hub 247's should have a steel top yoke. Not an aluminium as in the photo. And its likely to remain on the 'bike for a while longer as so far I have been unable to find the correct steel one. jt ooking flor the correct one . thanks Jerry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparks2 Posted March 23, 2013 Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 Been watching this thread since the beginning, nobody noticed in the original picture, the bike has the wrong top yoke, big hub 247's should have a steel top yoke. Not an aluminium as in the photo. Yes, I noticed straight away, but just didn't think to mention it. I assume it must be a contempory mod rather like the stronger aftermarket Bultaco top yoke from SHM and Jim Sandiford. Interestingly the alloy yoke introduces some Bultaco type tiller effect (with the bars behind the stem), the very thing that the intelligent ones now try to do away with. As they say, keep something long enough and it comes back into fashion again , .... , and again. Why change it, it was probably designed and made for the Cota. Yours, controversally Sparks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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