If It Ain't Broke....?

[jonny042]

All this talk about no-stop vs stop 'n hop, got me thinking.,,,

I'm relatively new to trials, have only been riding 5 years, but I am thoroughly addicted to it... I've been travelling around to whatever national (US) events I can get to, and I always have a ball. I love the community, have made lots of great friends, and the competition is friendly and supportive.

I come from a car racing background. I was a winner. Consequently people didn't like me until they bothered to get to know me. I was labelled a cheater, etc. - same old story. It was technically challenging and I still enjoy racing when I can but it's no longer my "life". Trials is.

So I don't really have a historic perspective, I have never known anyone other than Pat or Cody as champion! Which leads me to wonder, is Trials really broken? Does it need saving?

I checked the national results for 1999 in the US - there were 238 different riders in the various classes, in 11 rounds.. In 2012, there were 221 riders for 10 rounds. ....During a recession.

I have no idea about bike sales, but it seems to me there are bikes being sold. Maybe not in great numbers, but you can buy: Gas Gas, Sherco, Beta, Scorpa, Ossa, Jtg, that seems pretty vibrant.

Lucky us!

Please discuss..... does Trials need saving? From what?

[martin belair]

I've been at this a long time Johhny. It's broken.

Imagine a promo video for the sport of trials.

Opening scene: a rider enters a section pulls in the clutch, puts a foot on the ground and stays in place for 1 minute 29 seconds.

The commentator begins

" This is the exciting sport of Moto Trial. One of the most fun and challenging two wheeled sports on the planet. The rider you see is a master of balance and technique. He is being scored by an observer and so far his score is only ONE point. It is a near perfect ride so far, only one point above the best possible score of zero. "

All credibility gets lost. Even Motocross, Speedway and Dirt Tracker riders are moving when they put their foot down.

Edited January 26, 2013 by martin belair

[lineaway]

Now that`s poetry for the cause! You mind if we use it?

[nzpete]

My son is 17, was 3rd overall in the recent nationals in New Zealand. Talking with his mates he thinks non-stop is the best thing to happen for Enduro. A lot are just looking for bikes, National enduro increased to 8 rounds, new junior enduro series, extream enduro series 4 rounds.and a 3 day enduro. All exciting stuff.

Trials goes non-stop So what will you chose in his shoes.

Please dont come back with the cost factor, he rode a enduro cross on his trials bike finished third won 80 pounds and a rear tyre, looking for a bike that it will fit onto.

Extreame enduros is the only motorsport thats growing, and a lot of riders are moving into it from trials, non-stop will speed this up.

I know in my day we smoked 20 fags rode to work all week rode the same bike in a trial all in wellies and a flat cap, by eck it was rait good. Them days are gone, and non stop should be the same.

Pete

[ducati996]

James Dabill and Michael Brown have already started enduro.........sign of things to come.

[old trials fanatic]

I checked the national results for 1999 in the US - there were 238 different riders in the various classes, in 11 rounds.. In 2012, there were 221 riders for 10 rounds. ....During a recession.

I have no idea about bike sales, but it seems to me there are bikes being sold. Maybe not in great numbers, but you can buy: Gas Gas, Sherco, Beta, Scorpa, Ossa, Jtg, that seems pretty vibrant.

Lucky us!

Please discuss..... does Trials need saving? From what?

Thats the problem in a nutshell. 221 riders. So even if you assume that all 221 riders buy a new bike every year would you base your business plan on that size of potential market ? If the number of particepants doesnt grow massively and quick then thats it. We have had stop allowed in it's many variations and we have now arrived at where we are today with impossible sections and miniscule entries and it's only going to get worse if nothing is done. If it's the end for trials then so be it nothing lasts forever but at least some people are trying to do something.

[lineaway]

People are jumping to extreme enduros for one reason. That sport is growing and that is where factories are spending the profits chasing the golden egg. Trials riders are jumping because they already have the skills and are chasing the money. There never has been much money in trials. If they had not been trials riders, they would suck at this sport.

Imagine if endurocross was stopped every time a rider was stuck to make it a fair race. The sport would be a laughing joke!

On another note we had a club meeting the other night. There was a complaint the younger riders don`t pay much attention while scoring. We do not have a section time limit. So yes it is very boring to watch a rider spend five minutes tying to get a 3, in a section that should take less than 20 seconds to ride! I have a hard time watching this endless struggle of non-riding myself.

[steve fracy]

Jonny:

Where in Canada are you from?? I started riding US Nationals in 83. There were usually at least 10 rounds back then. If you managed to finish the day or year in the top 10 in the Champ class (now called Pro), you were considered one of the elite. Heck, anyone who finished in the top 20 was a very good rider! The rules have changed several times since then, but with the sections getting more difficult as the bikes got better, we have seen a huge decline in the Pro class entry. There has been a problem for many years like Martin says.... he is a very knowledgable and a former importer, and sponsor of many of the top riders. As well he was a top rider himself for many years!

It would seem that this trend is a worldwide one and now with the internet we can read for ourselves how its affecting other places too. There are many factors, and perhaps it will never be what it was...costs, etc. But, it obviously is a problem, that is directly affecting the people who are making the bikes and rely on the sales of those bikes to make a living. They would be the ones lobbying the FIM to come up with a solution.

I do not know what the answer is at all. Maybe the FIM should commission a world wide committee to study this for a year or so. The committee should be filled with riders, current and non current who have a direct knowledge of the issues and some innovative solutions.

As Ishy has said many times on TC, these constant rules changes dont really affect the local club riders at all. They will continue to use the same rules they have done for years and enjoyed.

[paul w]

cant help but think that you have missed the point completely. The rules apply to all, the majority are club riders, top flight are the minority, its how it affects you on a Sunday that matters. Club trials aint a spectator sport, personally I want to ride my bike, not sit in queue's, longer than I actually ride for. I don't want to watch some Herbert bounce his bike around for 5 minuets 3 feet into a section, watch him drop 3 doing so and then fail the obstacle anyway. (local trial, only local one running stop allowed) when he should have just ridden in, picked his line, failed the obstacle and moved on.

Top flight competition on the other hand should be a spectator sport, and the paying public want a show, bounce around all you want, ride backwards, the whole shebang,

Non stop gets a trial moving, flowing, you have to pick your line carefully, and ride accordingly

All that said, clubs will apply whatever rules they want, just look at the results and count the attendance, vote with you feet/tyres as you see fit.

[old trials fanatic]

cant help but think that you have missed the point completely. The rules apply to all, the majority are club riders, top flight are the minority, its how it affects you on a Sunday that matters. Club trials aint a spectator sport, personally I want to ride my bike, not sit in queue's, longer than I actually ride for. I don't want to watch some Herbert bounce his bike around for 5 minuets 3 feet into a section, watch him drop 3 doing so and then fail the obstacle anyway. (local trial, only local one running stop allowed) when he should have just ridden in, picked his line, failed the obstacle and moved on.

Top flight competition on the other hand should be a spectator sport, and the paying public want a show, bounce around all you want, ride backwards, the whole shebang,

Non stop gets a trial moving, flowing, you have to pick your line carefully, and ride accordingly

All that said, clubs will apply whatever rules they want, just look at the results and count the attendance, vote with you feet/tyres as you see fit.

Well said and smack on. If 3 experts decide not to ride at a trial but the club gains 4 Clubmen then the Club and Trials as a whole including the dealers are much better off. Remember experts dont buy anything but the Clubman does. Experts are always scrounging whatever whereas Clubmen spend their hard earned on their passion. The dealers need turnover to survive otherwise there wont be any dealers or manufacturers for that matter. What the sport needs is to get back to an entry thats passionate about the sport the same way most of us are. If you and take your ball away over something as small as riding non stop youre not commited to the sport anyway and it was probably just a passing phase.

Trials to most of us is a way of life not a freak show. Let the Pros do what they want if they can make it pay then whatever like 99% of riders give a damn.

We have too many other thing trying to bring an end to Trials riding non stop or stop allowed pales into insignificance when compared to land access issues.

[jonny042]

Some really good discussion, and I think I am starting to understand.... Martin (and others) makes some really good points. Look forward to hearing (and learning) more.

PS - Steve, I am in Thunder Bay, ON - the last one standing in our community.... the infamous McLuckie (Martin will know him!) is still around but he hasn't ridden in 3 or 4 years, his son and a few others have moved away. I ride in Minnesota club events, but most of the time it is me, myself, and I, practicing at home.

I have noticed the popularity of the clubman line. Even though the entry numbers are comparable, there is probably something to be learned from that. Pro has become Super-pro, Expert is where pro used to be, etc???

It will be interesting to see what else the FIM comes up with, and the specific wording of the rule? That could and will make all the difference and so far nobody knows that (Including, I gather, Toni Bou, judging from an interview I read somewhere.).

[sting32]

It is a joke, that anyone thinks the 'queues' are going to go away, except when nobody shows up to ride!

paul w:

Go ride FREAKING motocross and endurocross then! Been there done that one as well, My Brother still competes, he pays craploads of money to enter the park (most of the fees are to cover insurance, AMA, and land usage) plus $$ for his kids to "watch." He gets to ride 15 minutes for practice, and THEN, one 15 minute heat, if he doesn't qualify for the race, he's done and might as well go home. Gee that is fun and "valuable riding time" to compare to riding time at a trials! Last time I went with him to "practice day" he got to ride for 30 minutes, I paid $15 just to walk in and watch while on crutches no less. Outside Denver fwiw.

Trials Club events, I get to ride a minimum of 3-4 hours, few other fees involved, and I'm sure we're just lucky in kansas, non member price to ride is $16 plus your travel costs.

If you wanna ride and get some 'time to ride," you ride trials. But, you don't goto a nationals, they give you like 6 hours, because some OLD FARTS, the same one's that think trials needs to be no-stop, that are the ones that think it is "broken," have forever thought the loop has to be 40 miles. Friggin riders are tired, and someone sets a section that is aimed at the top 1% of the riders of that class, to have a difficult time (hoping to get Bou like riders to take a point or 2, which only happens when his life is at risk, so to speak). Stop or NO STOP the competition is going to cause lines in particularly hard sections.

No stop wont change stuff. Watching riders other than the top 2 riders, in Particularly challenging sections will ONLY have people trying to keep "going forward," and dabbing like hell, just to get through, which is no different than today. You know I'm right, you recall without the rose colored glasses from the 80's how long it took to ride sections, isn't much different today, since we allow only so many seconds in each section, stopped or NOT!

What the Belair's of the world want, reminds me of hillclimb competitions, maybe NATC should look into changing EVERYTHING trials, to that format. Charge up that friggin hill, nobody stops, bikes are destroyed which helps the hell out of the MFG's and parts departments. Whoo Hoo!

Lastly, It is freaking ridiculous A good AMATEUR rider, rides over crap we dreamed of riding over as experts/Master in the friggin 70's Don't act dumb, get that old 2 shocker out, and jump them logs you do now without even an effort, tell me what is up!

My main argument is, No stop just one more time, gives a Baloney call back to "judgment" call of the section observer. This is BALONEY, and they know it, it is NOT FAIR, and never will be. this is WHY it was let go long ago, the stop was allowed. Again I call your attention to WORLD ROUNDS, where they tried to IMPLEMENT STOP POINTS, there is documentation called TRIALS TV, where even just watching the seconds tic by on the VIDEO, that they did NOT give points to the TOP 3 WORLD riders who took longer to get through the same parts of the section, yet Raga was given stop points, when it can be proven he took less time all the way through the section? When I get home tonight Ill post up the tittle of the DVD, and which section, in case you all forgot.

you guys act as though MOTO-CRoss hasn't had to move on. Tripple jumps? excuse me? little 1 foot mounds used to kill riders & even break bikes, let alone the little whoops sections, and a 2 foot mound used as a jump.... now days they jump half a football field, why aren't they going back to "no jump" rules? Because they know it is ridiculous to go back to 1977...

[b40rt]

WTF is he talking about ??

[cotagb]

It is a joke, that anyone thinks the 'queues' are going to go away, except when nobody shows up to ride!

paul w:

Go ride FREAKING motocross and endurocross then! Been there done that one as well, My Brother still competes, he pays craploads of money to enter the park (most of the fees are to cover insurance, AMA, and land usage) plus $$ for his kids to "watch." He gets to ride 15 minutes for practice, and THEN, one 15 minute heat, if he doesn't qualify for the race, he's done and might as well go home. Gee that is fun and "valuable riding time" to compare to riding time at a trials! Last time I went with him to "practice day" he got to ride for 30 minutes, I paid $15 just to walk in and watch while on crutches no less. Outside Denver fwiw.

Trials Club events, I get to ride a minimum of 3-4 hours, few other fees involved, and I'm sure we're just lucky in kansas, non member price to ride is $16 plus your travel costs.

If you wanna ride and get some 'time to ride," you ride trials. But, you don't goto a nationals, they give you like 6 hours, because some OLD FARTS, the same one's that think trials needs to be no-stop, that are the ones that think it is "broken," have forever thought the loop has to be 40 miles. Friggin riders are tired, and someone sets a section that is aimed at the top 1% of the riders of that class, to have a difficult time (hoping to get Bou like riders to take a point or 2, which only happens when his life is at risk, so to speak). Stop or NO STOP the competition is going to cause lines in particularly hard sections.

No stop wont change stuff. Watching riders other than the top 2 riders, in Particularly challenging sections will ONLY have people trying to keep "going forward," and dabbing like hell, just to get through, which is no different than today. You know I'm right, you recall without the rose colored glasses from the 80's how long it took to ride sections, isn't much different today, since we allow only so many seconds in each section, stopped or NOT!

What the Belair's of the world want, reminds me of hillclimb competitions, maybe NATC should look into changing EVERYTHING trials, to that format. Charge up that friggin hill, nobody stops, bikes are destroyed which helps the hell out of the MFG's and parts departments. Whoo Hoo!

Lastly, It is freaking ridiculous A good AMATEUR rider, rides over crap we dreamed of riding over as experts/Master in the friggin 70's Don't act dumb, get that old 2 shocker out, and jump them logs you do now without even an effort, tell me what is up!

My main argument is, No stop just one more time, gives a Baloney call back to "judgment" call of the section observer. This is BALONEY, and they know it, it is NOT FAIR, and never will be. this is WHY it was let go long ago, the stop was allowed. Again I call your attention to WORLD ROUNDS, where they tried to IMPLEMENT STOP POINTS, there is documentation called TRIALS TV, where even just watching the seconds tic by on the VIDEO, that they did NOT give points to the TOP 3 WORLD riders who took longer to get through the same parts of the section, yet Raga was given stop points, when it can be proven he took less time all the way through the section? When I get home tonight Ill post up the tittle of the DVD, and which section, in case you all forgot.

you guys act as though MOTO-CRoss hasn't had to move on. Tripple jumps? excuse me? little 1 foot mounds used to kill riders & even break bikes, let alone the little whoops sections, and a 2 foot mound used as a jump.... now days they jump half a football field, why aren't they going back to "no jump" rules? Because they know it is ridiculous to go back to 1977...

Are you off your medication again? I never know if your post is going to be helpful; or if you're going to be a disrespectful jerk. (In case you're wondering, that post was the latter.)

Edited February 25, 2013 by cotagb

[kramit]

It is a joke, that anyone thinks the 'queues' are going to go away, except when nobody shows up to ride!

paul w:

Go ride FREAKING motocross and endurocross then! Been there done that one as well, My Brother still competes, he pays craploads of money to enter the park (most of the fees are to cover insurance, AMA, and land usage) plus $$ for his kids to "watch." He gets to ride 15 minutes for practice, and THEN, one 15 minute heat, if he doesn't qualify for the race, he's done and might as well go home. Gee that is fun and "valuable riding time" to compare to riding time at a trials! Last time I went with him to "practice day" he got to ride for 30 minutes, I paid $15 just to walk in and watch while on crutches no less. Outside Denver fwiw.

Trials Club events, I get to ride a minimum of 3-4 hours, few other fees involved, and I'm sure we're just lucky in kansas, non member price to ride is $16 plus your travel costs.

If you wanna ride and get some 'time to ride," you ride trials. But, you don't goto a nationals, they give you like 6 hours, because some OLD FARTS, the same one's that think trials needs to be no-stop, that are the ones that think it is "broken," have forever thought the loop has to be 40 miles. Friggin riders are tired, and someone sets a section that is aimed at the top 1% of the riders of that class, to have a difficult time (hoping to get Bou like riders to take a point or 2, which only happens when his life is at risk, so to speak). Stop or NO STOP the competition is going to cause lines in particularly hard sections.

No stop wont change stuff. Watching riders other than the top 2 riders, in Particularly challenging sections will ONLY have people trying to keep "going forward," and dabbing like hell, just to get through, which is no different than today. You know I'm right, you recall without the rose colored glasses from the 80's how long it took to ride sections, isn't much different today, since we allow only so many seconds in each section, stopped or NOT!

What the Belair's of the world want, reminds me of hillclimb competitions, maybe NATC should look into changing EVERYTHING trials, to that format. Charge up that friggin hill, nobody stops, bikes are destroyed which helps the hell out of the MFG's and parts departments. Whoo Hoo!

Lastly, It is freaking ridiculous A good AMATEUR rider, rides over crap we dreamed of riding over as experts/Master in the friggin 70's Don't act dumb, get that old 2 shocker out, and jump them logs you do now without even an effort, tell me what is up!

My main argument is, No stop just one more time, gives a Baloney call back to "judgment" call of the section observer. This is BALONEY, and they know it, it is NOT FAIR, and never will be. this is WHY it was let go long ago, the stop was allowed. Again I call your attention to WORLD ROUNDS, where they tried to IMPLEMENT STOP POINTS, there is documentation called TRIALS TV, where even just watching the seconds tic by on the VIDEO, that they did NOT give points to the TOP 3 WORLD riders who took longer to get through the same parts of the section, yet Raga was given stop points, when it can be proven he took less time all the way through the section? When I get home tonight Ill post up the tittle of the DVD, and which section, in case you all forgot.

you guys act as though MOTO-CRoss hasn't had to move on. Tripple jumps? excuse me? little 1 foot mounds used to kill riders & even break bikes, let alone the little whoops sections, and a 2 foot mound used as a jump.... now days they jump half a football field, why aren't they going back to "no jump" rules? Because they know it is ridiculous to go back to 1977...

I'd like to nominate "Sting32" to run the NATC

Edited February 26, 2013 by kramit