dbell Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 I was thinking the same thing about wheel device Billy.... great minds and all.... Pretending I know what I am talking about and it makes a difference... What is wrong with just overall time limits on a section? Watching the Barcelona indoor video you could see the top pro's taking extra points for exceeding time limits. With an overall time limit you force the rider to choose his/her strategy of how they uses stops or not. If you make the time limit short enough you will have riders "racing" through the section afraid to stop for fear of losing a time point. Make the time limit low enough and the time penalty high enough and you end up with something like a time trial enduro cross where the fastest rider wins. Adjust allowed time and time penalties to meet whatever goals you are trying to achieve. You could even mix it up. Same event could have sections with different time limits to expose different types of riding. You could lower the time limits on each successive loop. The possibilities are many. Upside is you only have to watch for dabs and keep time of rider in the section. No guessing on did they stop or not. Hope to see you out with Bill M. and others out in Simi on Saturday or Sunday Billy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breagh Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Must admit my interest in WTC is limited but as an observer I wouldn't be 5 ing anyone on the video (maybe the sumped up demo was a bit long?) All seemed to be making genuine attemps to keep moving. Surely give observers credit for some sense. A momentary feet up stop is neither here or there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ducati996 Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 What a bunch of crap that video is! No-Stop failed years ago and will fail again. My wife really has no interest in the sport and just puts up with my silly obsession, but those are the people that going to No Stop is supposed to get interested in the sport. She watched the section with Albert Cabestany doing the rear wheel hops. She said that there is such a minute difference between the stopped and the no stop that it will be difficult to decide. So for the average Joe that decides "hey let's check out this trials thing I have heard about" they go to a world round to see the BEST of the world and the rider has a flawless, awesome looking ride and gets a 5 because of a "hesitation" (translation "stop"). Average Joe will be wondering "what happened, why did the rider get a 5? It looked awesome to me" They will be confused all day. Also, all this talk about designing sections to suit No Stop riding that's all fine and dandy, but am I the only one watching this video that thought "those obstacles look like something I could ride or at least attempt, I thought these were the best riders in the world? Shouldn't they be able to ride stuff that looks impossible?" Sure the FIM may be trying to make the average rider in other motorcycle sports interested in trials and "easier" sections make the spectator believe they could do that. But in the USA anyways it may have the opposite effect. Look at the popularity of FMX the spectators know they can't ride like that but they love to watch it and then go ride their MotoX bikes really fast and dream that they are flying through the air like the FMX guys. But of course this is all just my opinion, and I know we all will not agree. Also the FIM governs, makes rules for World Events but I just don't see how this No-Stop nonsense would help the Club level and National level events. Might as well go ride Enduro and EnduroCross on the "big" bikes and get some respect for "riding the tough stuff". Notice there are no longer trials bikes allowed to compete withe the "big" bikes in EnduroCross in the USA, they got booted to their own class. Will be interesting to see how many extra bikes the manufactures sell this yr seeing that was one of the reasons of no stop.What a bunch of idiots we got in the ACU and FIM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasgas249uk Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Observers will face more hassle and intimidation over their fine calls and the riders and minders will use their tongues more this year than they ever have contesting marks at sections. On a side issue Gas Gas must have leaned on Raga hard to get him involved in the video He hates no stop and im surprised he didnt pull out a protest banner lol. Just imagine if Phillipe Berlatier was around now?. The observers would be running for cover this year . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 It always makes me sigh when the yanks keep going on about sensors on the wheels because the non stop rule has never been about the wheel stopping i.e. lock the front or rear wheel whilst descending doesnt mean you have stopped forward motion so is therefore irrelevant. We have all done this at some point and know it to be true that you havent stopped forward motion so lets just dismiss that as an irrelevance used by people who just dont understand the premiss. OK back to the video. Firstly i commend the FIM in releaseing it to try and explain where they are coming from. After watching it a couple of times i think it comes down to a gut feeling for the observer that they maintained forward motion or not. Lets face it no observer is going to be as close as the camera view so it will always be a gut feeling call. Either you accept the idea of non stop or dont. If you dont you will always find arguements for saying that the rider did stop when the observer didnt think he did. I have even read arguements that reiterate newtonian laws that would only normally be discussed in a laboratory or a phd thesis. Unbelieveable. Whatever this is the fait acomplis that the FIM have presented to us for this year so make the best of it. IMHO i find the techniques much more watchable and skillful than stop allowed but i firmly believe that trials should be non stop anyway so thats my starting point so i view it differently to someone that comes from the opposite strating point. You see i remember wht trials evolved in the first place and still believe those core values should remain however i also think the time has possibly come for a persuit along the lines of stop allowed WTC of previous years to run as a stand alone sport because i dont see how the two can coexist in the same confine. It works for moto cross so i see no reason why it shouldnt for trials. As for the riders and those bloody minders etc argueing with observers then it's time to introduce the yellow card for ANY objection to the observers decision and a red card for continuing the arguement that would apply to the rider and minder, why the hell do they need to exist anyway surely they come under the heading of outside assistance?, and a red card results in exclusion no appeal allowed. The observers decision is final as it always was. If you have a gripe or whinge direct it at the clerk of the course thats why he's there. Anyway good luck to the riders this year and i hope it's a sucess and the whingers and whiners finally shut up. I still feel that the course designers can do a lot to eliminate some of the more contentious areas but lets see how it pans out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham2 Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 This is going to create such a stink, even the FIM's own definitive video has a touch of ambiguity in it's interpretation. Can you imagine the top riders falling back on their old skills/habits when they've cocked up an approach in the heat of competition. gasgas249uk has a point, I think the next world champion is going to need the bad mouth of Laia, the skills of Toni and the intimidating physical presence of Bruno Comozzi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexmetrology Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 The organisers at the high end will need to ensure the observers are treated with respect whatever there decision. If the rider/minder becomes argumentitive then mark the score card as 25 (or if punchcard, pop all 0,1,2,3,5 so that a penalty can be added at the end). Then they can lodge a protest with the organiser, not the observer. At world level there may need to be 2 or 3 officials per section to discuss & review every ride before scoring (maybe from different countries), maybe video recording every section/every ride so that the 'protest' can be reviewed following the event. Another suggestion may be for riders to score each other, similar happens in golf ?!?!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bingbasher Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 I wish i could stop.My balance is rubbish. After watching that video,i pity the observers,they will have a hard time of it. Observers wanted.MUST have thick skin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyl Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 I wish i could stop.My balance is rubbish. After watching that video,i pity the observers,they will have a hard time of it. Observers wanted.MUST have thick skin. No change there then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guys Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Why does it have to be a 5 when you stop. A 1 is more than enough to keep us on the move. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyt Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) "It always makes me sigh when the yanks keep going on about sensors on the wheels" Where are the "Yanks" going on about this? "We have all done this at some point and know it to be true that you havent stopped forward motion so lets just dismiss that as an irrelevance." Ignorant B*******. Lets just dismiss your postings also. Maybe you should read what was actually wrote. Edited February 28, 2013 by billyt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 "It always makes me sigh when the yanks keep going on about sensors on the wheels" Where are the "Yanks" going on about this? Ah, was waiting for this response right after I read that post!!! You been away too long now I guess mate! Oh yeah, where the heck are you??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyt Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) Steve Just got your text last night. All is well, I will call you or e mail you at the weekend. Yanks my a***................. Edited February 28, 2013 by billyt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outlaw dave Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 Och Billy - settle down laddie, - you're living in their back yard - but didn't you say you were going to be in Alberta this summer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 Just reflecting suggestions in billyt and dbell posts both showing locations as being usa. "Ignorant B****** " been called worse on a regular basis Still dont get why front wheel or rear wheel for that rotation is the same as forward motion. So if you pull a wheelie and put the front brake on therefore the wheel stops by your logic you have ceased forward motion? Hmmm strange logic. Doesnt seem to work that way over here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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