woody Posted April 29, 2013 Report Share Posted April 29, 2013 Why is the observing any more subjective than it was under last year's rules? Time again we've seen riders moving a bike backwards by 'bouncing on the spot' except that they aren't, they move the bike backwards - against the direction of the section in order to get a better line. That's 5 - it's never given. Time again we see riders at all levels stuck on a root / rock or suchlike with a foot or feet down trying to pull the bike forwards. The bike is actually rocking back and forwards whilst the rider tries to get going again having FAILED to get over the obstacle that they are stuck on. Usually they get a 1 instead of the correct 5 for the bike slipping backwards. Whilst I've no personal interest in what they do with WTC rules, it's ridiculous to say that only TSR22B rules are open to interpretation or subjective, given what's been going on under TSR22A for the last however many years. Observing, whatever the rules, is subjective by its very nature. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lineaway Posted April 29, 2013 Report Share Posted April 29, 2013 All the newbies hate no-stop (which are the correct rules forever) All the real trials riders hate the all day dab. (If you try to ride well, you can be beat by a guy with less skill). And now we are back to `it depends on who`s scoring`. Make it simple. Outdoor rides with the same rules as indoor. Everyone can figure that out. Except with a very tight time limit. Not 1.5 minutes a section. How about 1 second for every two meters long each section is! Measured beforehand on the line of intent and marked at the start gate of each section. Ride no stop, time is on your side. If you just gotta hop, you are chancing a 5 not from the scorer but from that you are a slow rider!! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borus Posted April 29, 2013 Report Share Posted April 29, 2013 "non-stop" has a new move already!, coined the "double hop, flick, hop, triple flick" very nice, I will start tomorrow on this>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 Let's boycott the British Round! That's just dumb. The only people that would suffer are the organisers. I have a bit of an insight into how much it costs to put one of these on and we're not exactly seeing organisers queuing up in the UK to take on the commitment. I know some have no interest in the world Trials "circus", but those that do need to support these events or they just won't happen. May suggest that Trialscentral reaches out to the FIM, Thierry Michaud, for a comment. The downside is Thierry is a big advocate of no-stop. I doubt I'd get an unbiased view. Cabestany's post-event comments (Google translated) say "And to end the trial, and speak with Michaud, and tell me that he was happy in as it had worked". In fact, Cabestany makes a number of good points: Reflections post Motegi. Now that it's been the first GP of the year, we have already more than a little idea of what awaits us. Here I don't want to judge if the non stop whether, or not. It is basically a new sport, and today is what touches us. The real problem is what happened in Japan. As well says the regulation, it is penalized with a fiasco when the bike stops advancing. So that he implement that! I bet because they are really strict, then it will be the only way that a pilot can focus on driving, exclusively. The feeling that I was after the trial, was the same that I have every day when I go to train. Suffer. In the daily training, why not join a forest fining me, and in the trial of Japan, that the control not me 5 to be 1.7 seconds stopped instead of 1.5. If you at least know that it will be strict, you focus on piloting the best you can, not to enter into that kind of game. Here was terrible, spent in a single area in which control the input was tolerance 0 (which I welcome), elsewhere in the area, let you make changes without forward and slightly standing before starting. And to end the trial, and speak with Michaud, and tell me that he was happy in as it had worked, I realized that we expected a tough year. By commenting at the end of the GP, and people who spoke with him, in the U.S. you want to follow that trend, and give even more tolerance to stop. I sincerely hope that you use this month that remains until the next GP to reflect well and take a stance of tolerance 0. But, in 2 GP will be making the areas last year, and don't think that it's what he wanted when introduced this new regulation... Already as a story, and so they give is that the non-stop is beneficial for the pilot amateur, if you look at the first round of the Japan trial, more than one pilot ended with all fives... as minor is your level of piloting, more it requires you to naturally stop. BTW, they tried the motion sensor thing a few years ago. It didn't work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borus Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 I totally agree with Cabestany's reflections, he makes his living from trials so he has a unique perspective, zero tolerance should be asked of the observers, that we now have a new sport at the world level, so now the riders and paying customers can decide if this is what they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 Read Cabestany's comments. Gave me a headache trying to follow it. Can anybody translate into proper English. That was like trying to read a post by Bondy. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laser1 Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 I dont think watching a rider creep at the "just above a stop" speed through large portions of the section delivers much on the wildly oversold "makes it more dynamic" no-stop promise. Back when they had a time limit, it was alot more fun watching them motocross their way through the "easy" parts of the section to buy themselves time for proper setup at the more spectacular hits. They would get faster and faster throughout the day and usually throw in some very stylish moves. Beats the hell out of this creeping stuff where 1/2 the people in the crowd think they stopped momentarily in several spots. I agree there were some subjective rules that allow for scoring inconsistencies in stop allowed. I disagree that's a good argument in support of allowing more subjective rules in no-stop. I would not want to be a checker, and if this keeps up, will not be much of a spectator either. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 I dont think watching a rider creep at the "just above a stop" speed through large portions of the section delivers much on the wildly oversold "makes it more dynamic" no-stop promise. Back when they had a time limit, it was alot more fun watching them motocross their way through the "easy" parts of the section to buy themselves time for proper setup at the more spectacular hits. They would get faster and faster throughout the day and usually throw in some very stylish moves. Beats the hell out of this creeping stuff where 1/2 the people in the crowd think they stopped momentarily in several spots. I agree there were some subjective rules that allow for scoring inconsistencies in stop allowed. I disagree that's a good argument in support of allowing more subjective rules in no-stop. I would not want to be a checker, and if this keeps up, will not be much of a spectator either. Fair point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie_lejeune Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 (edited) a sensor linked to both wheels that cut the engine out when it stopped turning, this could be done easily. It would be activated when the bike passed through the start markers and de activated when the bike passed the end cards, there could also be a light or a noise to indicate the sensor had worked. I think thats do able and reliable Edited April 30, 2013 by eddie_lejeune Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 I agree there were some subjective rules that allow for scoring inconsistencies in stop allowed. I disagree that's a good argument in support of allowing more subjective rules in no-stop. But I didn't say it was an argument to support no-stop. People are making a big deal out of how erratic no-stop observing is. All I did was point out how erratic observing of TSR22A has been too. Are people seriously suggesting there have been no rider/minder/observer confrontations since stop and hop arrived in around '82. I prefer no-stop but don't necessarily think it is the answer to whatever the problems, perceived, real or otherwise, are at WTC. The FIM, manufacturers and riders need to first of all decide what they want from the WTC. Is it first and foremost a competition, as it used to be, to determine who will be world champ from the best of each country. When, if enthusiasts wanted to turn out and watch the riders perform then they did so, but the events were always geared towards the sport, not spectators. Or is it just now a show for spectators, revenue earner for whoever with the actual competition to determine a world champ just a sideline by-product. A show far removed from what happens on your average Sunday in club rider land Until they find an answer to that, the WTC will probably never have any real direction or stability. But ultimately, does that make any difference to your average club rider’s enjoyment at their average club trials most Sundays. Most probably not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj65 Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 (edited) Read Cabestany's comments. Gave me a headache trying to follow it. Can anybody translate into proper English. That was like trying to read a post by Bondy. What I think Albert was saying, is he wants the observers to be strict with their marking, consistently, as he felt that it was a case of some riders getting away with stopping whereas some were getting a 5. If he new that every observer was going to be strict, he and the other riders would know they would have to concentrate on riding the correct way all the time. He hoped that things would get better. But Thierry Machaud thought it was a success and that he was happy for it to become even more slacker as the series ran, Or something along those lines. I don't think he is happy. Edited April 30, 2013 by jj65 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laser1 Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 (edited) I think the difference is that 99% of stop allowed advocates would probably suggest its much more subjective to call a momentary stop than a total change of direction. To your point, that's not easy either and we have had confrontations and arguments in stop allowed. However, the logical conclusion should therefore be to reduce subjectiveness regardless of anyone's style bias. Somehow we end up with the opposite. Definitely not your fault though Woody. I think the vast majority of top riders have been very vocal in their disagreement of this change. The 2013 FIM trials comp committee voted to keep it stop allowed. All was overturned behind closed doors and then never substantiated with anything official from those MFG's who were "supposedly" driving it. So I agree with you, until the FIM can adopt a transparent process to invoke changes, they won't find the answer that serves the sport best. Edited April 30, 2013 by laser1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 So I agree with you, until the FIM can adopt a transparent process to invoke changes, they won't find the answer that serves the sport best. But, is what serves WTC best, also best for the sport as a whole. Now there's a subjective poser... Personally I don't think it matters what they do with WTC as I just can't see how it has any bearing in the slightest on what happens at club level. To be honest, there is barely a trial I go to throughout the year that it's even mentioned. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 But, is what serves WTC best, also best for the sport as a whole. Now there's a subjective poser... Personally I don't think it matters what they do with WTC as I just can't see how it has any bearing in the slightest on what happens at club level. To be honest, there is barely a trial I go to throughout the year that it's even mentioned. well said the WTC is irrelevant to Trials as a sport we participate in most weekends. The WTC can do what the hell it wants it's what happens at Club and Centre trials that really matters. Most riders never even mention the BTC never mind the WTC and couldn't name last years top 3 if asked cos they don't really give a toss about the WTC or BTC for that matter just what they ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyl Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 a sensor linked to both wheels that cut the engine out when it stopped turning, this could be done easily. It would be activated when the bike passed through the start markers and de activated when the bike passed the end cards, there could also be a light or a noise to indicate the sensor had worked. I think thats do able and reliable What about when you are sliding down a hill with both wheels locked - not a five!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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