Ridiculous Riding Styles

[90vanman]

Hi, having watched a lot of road/track racing through the years, I am becoming more incredulous at the recent riding styles of late. Back in the fifties and sixties TOP riders such as M Hailwood etc used to ride very tidily and tucked in. The tyres of the day were by no means as good as those in use today, even for the lower power outputs available then, bearing in mind that the rider used the THROTTLE to control the rear wheel, not traction control and ABS systems. Why is it that 'knee-down' became the fashion, I thought at the time it became popular that it was 'posing', especially when ordinary road riders started doing it, claiming it was essential. to keep this missive short, I will cut to the point now, why oh why do a particular few riders hang their WHOLE leg out? This puts me in mind of moped riders who drag a foot for a hundred yards when pulling away from the lights. If you do not know how far you are leaning going into a bend, it's time to stop riding, if your leg is stuck out when the bike lowsides you deserve to break it. For Christ's sake, learn to ride neatly.Hailwood is said to have achieved lean angles of 45 degrees, on tyres of less than modern standards of grip without all the antics performed these days.

[richt]

I don't know how true this is, Some people have said it acts like an air brake and draws the bike into the corner. It may be bull+++e but it sounds like it could be plausible.

[90vanman]

Hi Richt, that may be one theory, but fourstrokes have much more engine braking than two strokes, which is , I believe, where this ridiculous style originated. Years ago, when twostrokes were the thing, engine braking was limited, and brakes not too good either, a lot of riders would sit up, putting their body in the slipstream to slow themselves down a bit, not these dozy antics. While I'm on the subject of riding styles, is there any reason why a rider has to use the run-off area, as though the track is not wide enough. The run-off area is just that, for a chance to recover from too fast an entry into a bend, not a track extension. When I raced karts we were warned for use of it as being unsportsmanlike. If you don't like the confines of a track, try desert racing.

[richt]

Yes some good points compared to the 500cc days, Have just watched the 'Unrideables' film with Schwantz, Gardner, Lawson and Rainey. I think it was much better then!

[0007]

I think Rossi started the leg out thing and I don't know why

My guess is to make the package wider and keep a guy from moving up the inside and passing

And these people who keep their feet out while riding away from a stoplight drive me nuts, makes me think they don't know what they are doing

[nigel dabster]

when I learnt to ride road bikes back in the seventies they made a big thing about picking up feet, im with you guys on this.

[eddie_lejeune]

90vanman your hardly in a position to tell the doctor and co how to race motorbikes?

[jrsunt]

It does seem rather odd to be trailing your leg into a corner, especially when you'd expect them to be using the rear brake a little. But I guess there are so many goscopic forces trying to drag the bike in a straight line, that any weight you can throw about must help the bike turn in.

As for the run off area, aren't the necessary for safety? They are pushing the limits lap after lap, brake a fraction late and they've missed the corner, without that run off, teams would have big repair bills, riders injured and less finishers.

Imagine running out of the line of flags in a section and falling off a 10ft drop everytime you made that mistake. It could be more entertaining to watch though!

[bmseven]

balance, leverage and weight transfer?

Carbon brakes will stop much quicker and this transfers the weight better?

Increased drag?

Easier to get your foot on the footpeg for the corner?

Either way Rossi started it in 05 and as Burgess proved with Rossi's data no benefit was gained by carrying out the "leg wave" or leaving his foot on the pegs

[tltel]

I don't think you can compare the power and corner speed of todays bikes with the bikes of the 500 two stroke era.

Jrsunt.

They have thumb brakes for the rear!

TLTEL

[90vanman]

I don't think you can compare the power and corner speed of todays bikes with the bikes of the 500 two stroke era.

Jrsunt.

They have thumb brakes for the rear!

TLTEL

I wasn't comparing the two directly, the two strokes of the day were spiteful peaky engines, but having ridden several Kwaka triples and more 4pot 4strokes, I know which are more controllable, so imagine both being tweaked for racing. I had a lovely Ducati a few years ago, and tried 'knee-down' and felt a complete ****, on the road. I did manage to get my knee down a couple of times, but really couldn't see the benefit, so carried on in a 'tucked-in' stylee. Some of the two strokes, if I remember correctly had a device a bit like a rev limiter, to cut cylinders and slow the bike a bit more than just being on the over-run. The comparison of the tyres relates to evil power delivery of the old two strokes and the managed engines of today, they may be more powerful now, but their delivery is much nicer, no going on the pipe and doubling the torque in seconds. The greatest respect is due to the riders of todays GP bikes, but I will retain my opinion about untidy riders. As a side issue, when will something be done about the ridiculous speeds that are being expected of riders on the Island? The 100 mph lap was a hell of an achievement when it was done, and on the bikes it was done on, but it seems to me that it is just dangerous to be marching on at 200 mph plus on roads not much improved since the Seventies or so. Rant over, I'd take my Valium and lie down for an hour. Dave

[bongo177]

The knee down is used as a gauge for the rider to know the exact lean angle he's at. I touch my knee and then lift it marginally so it just rides the tarmac every so slightly. It's a constant monitor to your angle that you just use withouth even thinking while racing, as the entire basis of racing is to be at 100%, to be at the limit of adhesion in a bend, and to not step over that limit, yet be on it constantly. The knee down gives you an extra sense to help achieve this. A lot of people stick the knee out and when it touches, think that that is the limit of lean angle, but as you improve you realise you can bring the knee in and lean more, and more and more. You can safely get your elbow down on any sports bike with the chassis's and tyres of the modern age without any problems.

I've raced a long time and not done bad. I know a thing or two about riding principles in road racing and explored this in my ead, and on track. As for the leg out. I have tried it a fair bit in 2011. If there was an advantage to be had, i was more than willing to try to find it, but after trying it in different scenarios on different corners, i was unable to find an advantage. I have tried it on a 2010 Yamaha 6 that i raced in 2011 and a 2009 Fireblade that i currently race, and it helped not one bit on either.

There are theories that it only really helps on the prototype chassis's of the GP grids due to their stiffness and need for balance on corner entry, where a homologated chassis that you race in production bike series' has enough in built flex for the advantage to be lost within the flex of the chassis. There is a clear advantage in a raceon corner entry, which is as a defensive strategy, to ride wider and create an off putting situation for a rider behind who has to deal with the leg as well as the rider and it can make their line tighter on entry if they are to pass on the brakes. For me, my racing is faster when i am settled and smooth on the entry, with my feet where they should be and my knee's on the tank holding my weight to keep my upperbody relaxed and my centre of gravitiy in the middle of the bike and not down through the forks as the leg out inevitably causes, when the legs off the tank cause the body weight to be supported by the handlebars.

A final quote from VR... "Why do you do the leg thing Valentino".... "I'm not certain why i do it, but i know exactly why everyone else does it!"

Bongo

[colinf]

thinking about what 90vanman said comparing engine braking 4stroke vs 2 stroke.Obviously the motogp bikes have very high compression/low inertia engines but that is why they have slipper clutches,this means reduced engine braking and the reason they are buggers to push start.The "leg out" thing is debatable but assuming the riders weight is on his legs and not his bum wouldn't taking your leg off the inside peg load the outside of the bike?

[dadof2]

In Hailwoods day the bikes slid very little and had very little power and narrow power bands. The only way to make them go fast was to ride smoothly, concentrate an keeping the engine "on the cam" and tuck well in to minimise air resistance.

Having the knee down on the corner sometimes enables the rider to push the bike back up to avoid a crash following a front wheel slide. Another reason riders hang off the inside is to reduce the bike lean angle to make the suspension work better and control the tyre contact patch.

Having the inside leg out into a corner is probably a comfort thing, in case of a slide picked up from motocrossing, You occasionally see road racers do it in very wet conditions even though the don't do it in the dry.

Cheers

[bongo177]

Saving a front end slide with the knee is one in a thousand, it is extremely rare and the only people who have done it will be more than happy tonsay it's just the luck of the draw. I've done it once in 5 years of racing and it was pure luck. On the flip side, I've lost the front probably 15 times and crashed despite my knee ring in position to save me. When your knee is on the ground, you are either fully off the front brake having already takes as trailed into the corner, or you are almost finished, and are at the very end of the trailing I to the corner. You only get good feeling of grip from the front end ice you are off the brakes, as the brakes control the suspensions compression, not allowing the company and rebound to react to the ground to give you a good feeling of contact and grip. This means that losing the front mod corner while on a closed throttle or while at the end of the braking (which is 99% of all front end crashes) are before the apex and happen extremely quickly. What I'm trying to say is that the knee is not for saving front end crashes at all, it just happens to help once every so often!