Spanish Fiasco?

[steveo]

Like your term much better Tim. Have to sit on the fence about who may have been better or up there with the talent of the current mastero's. Dabster and others that have had the benefit of seeing these guys in action are more the guys to pass judgement than me. The fact is wether it was Sammy,Mart, Yrjjo, Eddie,Jordi or Dougie, at their best they all seemed invincible and all fit the bill as mastero's of our sport.

[toofasttim]

The 15 I'm thinking of would consist of a few of the Japenese maybe one or two antipodeans, then mainly Junior class winners like Gomez Wigg Gibert even Smage and Webb, a few french lads, these have all dropped out/moved on in very recent years, not forgetting taddy!

And Shaun Morris?

Whilst taddy may be the exception the cost of travelling around the world, no real factory support except for one or two, means that unfortunately to ride wtc you have to self fund pretty much outside top six or so

Why when they have DHL as a partner is there no arrangement to transport bikes to events?

Why do the factories not "product support" more riders?

Why do the factories not have a bonus scheme to incentivise riders to compete? (like mx in the states)

Why do the top riders have to pay to enter events when often money is taken on the gate?

Why is prize money given at American championship events but not at wtc?

So it's costs?

[eddie_lejeune]

So it's costs?

I think severity is one hurdle which could be overcome, and cost is another which the FIM should put more effort into resolving as dabster says

[ironbelly]

Perhaps you also think the same about the observers ? Perhaps you would also prefer the riders decide what scores they should each have ?

Did I mention observers? dont remember that!! and where did you get the Riders Deciding what scores they have?, I think you must have been reading some other post?

I loved watching the World Championship Trials, now the pleasure has gone, as I am studying if they stop or not and looking what marks the observer has given, cannot concerntrate on the beauty that it once was, Top rider also get away with a lot more in the new rules as observers are scared of giving them a 5 where a lesser rider would be.

Sport moves on from generation to generation, things progress and so do rules, Riders of "TODAY" should decide, people who rode twin shock can still do twin shock trials today, air cooled, pre65, etc. we are talking about today Modernday Trials, the old format worked, Bike sales decline is nothing to do with what rules are in place, there are different Trials which cater for all as stated! So when it comes to "INDOORS" will it be "none stop" NO! so they have condradicted themselves, Just go back to how it was.

[funtrials]

I loved watching the World Championship Trials, now the pleasure has gone, as I am studying if they stop or not and looking what marks the observer has given, cannot concerntrate on the beauty that it once was, Top rider also get away with a lot more in the new rules as observers are scared of giving them a 5 where a lesser rider would be.

Sport moves on from generation to generation, things progress and so do rules, Riders of "TODAY" should decide, people who rode twin shock can still do twin shock trials today, air cooled, pre65, etc. we are talking about today Modernday Trials, the old format worked, Bike sales decline is nothing to do with what rules are in place, there are different Trials which cater for all as stated! So when it comes to "INDOORS" will it be "none stop" NO! so they have condradicted themselves, Just go back to how it was.

Great post.

[baldilocks]

Did I mention observers? dont remember that!! and where did you get the Riders Deciding what scores they have?, I think you must have been reading some other post?

I loved watching the World Championship Trials, now the pleasure has gone, as I am studying if they stop or not and looking what marks the observer has given, cannot concerntrate on the beauty that it once was, Top rider also get away with a lot more in the new rules as observers are scared of giving them a 5 where a lesser rider would be.

Sport moves on from generation to generation, things progress and so do rules, Riders of "TODAY" should decide, people who rode twin shock can still do twin shock trials today, air cooled, pre65, etc. we are talking about today Modernday Trials, the old format worked, Bike sales decline is nothing to do with what rules are in place, there are different Trials which cater for all as stated! So when it comes to "INDOORS" will it be "none stop" NO! so they have condradicted themselves, Just go back to how it was.

Next time your studying if they stopped or not and what the observer has scored ask yourself why it never bothered you that under previous rules feet up going backwards was acceptable and this didnt bother you ? You have already decided you dont like no stop. Observing is not correct all the time and never will be, but under either rules good riders will always benefit.

[zippy]

I just recently stopped at a gas station with my GasGas in the truck. 3 MX & street riders stopped and chatted with me about trials. The FIRST thing that THEY mentioned was that this is the bike for the sport where they stop, balance, hop around in place and then blast up the obstacle and that is really cool! I had a nice chat with them and tried to point them to the MOTA website for info on our next event and they should come out and watch, maybe in the future they could compete. Trials is UNIQUE in the fact that it is about BALANCE AND CONTROL, and the rules need to find a good middle ground for MODERN events that bridges gap between no stop and stop and hop.

Yes I prefer to ride stop allowed, but I DESPISE the "stop w/foot down, take a rest, talk to guy outside of section about how to hit that big log, all day dab" If you can balance (feet up) hop and get set up then ride obstacle you have skill, If you can choose a line and ride through it without stopping and ride the obstacle you have skill. These are just 2 different sets of skills to achieve the same ends. And I believe that the following allows both styles to be ridden.

I still think the major points of rules for 5's should be:

Stopped with foot down = 5 (you are a kickstand and your bike can do this without you)

Stopped balancing = 0

Rolling backwards = 5 (just in the interest of keeping things moving forward in the section)

Time limit for Nationals & WTC 90 seconds, out of time = 5 (can adjust lower time if need be)

If your problem at club events is section severity, then swallow your pride and ride a class lower that suits your abilities or learn to ride better.

Just my opinions

[nigel dabster]

And Shaun Morris?

So it's costs?

pretty much i think.Take gratterola, and to much less of an extent Jack Challoner.

Grat is a nice enough lad who can ride to a good standard in the top route, but unlike Wigg gubian and Gomez hasnt won either junior or youth titles, but still manages to get support from Italian sponsors, and I guess they (the italians) are sorting out JC?

What is an expense for these also rans is simply getting to events paying the entry fees and trying to ride as a professional ie getting some sort of wage? Or at least expenses to get to events.

These lower end riders and those who we would wish to compete need to stick at for a few years to try and break through. (See how long its taken dibs to get podium, grat his sevnth place and so on, Fajardo only has one win)

I dont know how we can fund these riders but severity may help the odd one to stick at it for an extra year or so.

Certainly the factories could be more forthcoming, in simple support at events, ditto federations, I cant see why Sherco for example seem to have a great bike for Cabs but the rest arent as good?Why?

[eddie_lejeune]

Certainly the factories could be more forthcoming, in simple support at events, ditto federations, I cant see why Sherco for example seem to have a great bike for Cabs but the rest arent as good?Why?

they can only hide 1 gas gas engine inside a sherco engine?

[ironbelly]

Next time your studying if they stopped or not and what the observer has scored ask yourself why it never bothered you that under previous rules feet up going backwards was acceptable and this didnt bother you ? You have already decided you dont like no stop. Observing is not correct all the time and never will be, but under either rules good riders will always benefit.

Studying, you have answered my question for me, here is this, put 10 people in separate rooms and get them to watch a video of a top rider under the new rules, I bet that their scores are all over the place, next get them to watch a video under old rules, I bet my life that all have near on the same scores!! I rest my case, None Stop Dont Work!!

[baldilocks]

You might but go and watch 10 videos under the old rules where reversing should be a five. every time bou puts that front wheel on a rock then pulls it back before driving the wheel into the rock that should have been a five. Now tell me why you can accept that being a clean ? remember i'm not stating no stop is better i'm simply stating neither rule is / was perfectly applied.

[jrsunt]

Lets face it, the WTC or the BTC isn't going to get the support from riders unless it is completely dumbed down for the elite few to allow more riders be more competitive.

Look at the Macdonald trial at fort william last year, great trial for the likes of me, but i bet it was slightly uninspiring for browny and dabs. Now if the wtc was to do the same, bou and raga virtually going clean every round just to allow a few more to have a go (assuming you can find more riders willing to fund their efforts) then does it not take some of the wtc kudos away.

Isn't the whole point of these series to test the elite, whether they do it stop or no stop is irrelavent. If you want entries then it will have to be too easy for the best, it shouln't be a championship thats lost on throwing silly marks away, it should be won by truly unbelievable riding that the rest of us just look at and admire.

[toofasttim]

John, ultimately that is the argument. Is the WTC a circus act that bears little if any resemblance to the sport in which we compete or is it an extension of the sport in which we compete? If it is a circus act is it sustainable? For how long are the factories going to throw what appears to be stupid money (for them) at the WTC when it might have little bearing on sales? What sells more bikes? The WTC or the SSDT?

Edited July 1, 2013 by toofasttim

[nigel dabster]

clearly the factories believe the WTC, no trucks at fort william let alone the top riders?

Certainly the btc that i saw 2 weeks ago did match what i ride, I even rode the first when we were putting in flags so as an inspiration to ppeps it was a great success, all we need is to get a few more sections that are well designed and dont result in scores like the Spanish round there has to be a happy medium? But not a circus.

As sunt says rules whatever they are make no difference, and as for rolling back it just hasnt happened that much and the 1 minute 30 sec rule sort of negates the significance of a minor transgression like this, but stopping under no stop is fundamental to the rule change and its happening in every section with every rider,big difference.

[baldilocks]

I think im right in saying under last years rules to clean a section you had to:

a) go from start to end without touching the flags

not use a part of the body to assist balance

c) the machine must not go backward

d) the section must be completed in 1min 30 secs.

Why Andrew does completing only 3 of the above suffice but you deem no stop to be an absolute. Point here is under either rules we need an acceptable standard of consistency. To say stop permitted was easier / better observed is not true in my view.

Edited July 1, 2013 by baldilocks