Want To Try Atf?

[mokwepa]

Hi guys

Time to change my oil and would like to try atf. Have a 07 rev3 and live in the middle of no where and the only products easily available are caltex oils from the local general dealer/gas station. Can I use their atf? What do I need to look out for? Quite sure its mineral and not synthetic.

Thanks

[shyted]

hello mokwepa , before you decide to do that read all the pages concerning the use of ATF and the clutch mod on Beta started by Dan Williams . Personally i'd get 5w 40 semi synthetic before hydraulic oil in your bike . Have a good read through then chose for your self .

Good luck .

Ted

[guys]

I've said it before: This oil is as good as ATF in regards to clutch drag and smooth clutch action and you don't have to worry if you've got the right kind of ATF oil...

http://www.trialsuk.co.uk/products/gro-gear-extrem-75w

[dadof2]

07 rev 3 should have 20w-40 in gearbox

Use 10w-40 engine oil or 75w gear oil

Synthetic will give more protection than mineral

I am certain Caltex will do these grades

I would not use ATF it is far too thin

[charlie chitlins]

ATF has "detergent" in it...meaning solvents.

It can swell your plates or un-bond the friction material from the plates.

[copemech]

ATF has "detergent" in it...meaning solvents.

It can swell your plates or un-bond the friction material from the plates.

BS! Many have used it for years. Early Gassers had some issues, but that was the bike. The stuff does have cleaning properties.

It is thinner, making the clutch reaction quicker. Not for all, but be your own judge.

[stork955]

G'day. Consider what ATF is designed for. It runs in Automatic transmissions, which consist of generally 2 or 3 clutches exactly the same in design as the ones in our bikes. Transmitting a whole lot more power as well. It lubricates gears in the epicyclic gear trains (usually 3 of them), lubricates bronze bushes in these same gear trains, Acts as a hydraulic fluid, cools, Operates under brake bands, does all of this at temperatures of up to 600 degrees celcius and without changing for years and many thousands of kilometers. It has anti foaming properties. It does not have as much detergent (if any at all ) as engine oils. It does not need it. All this for little price. Keep in mind too, that 75 weight Gear oil is actually the same viscosity (give or take) as 30 weight engine oil. It is not measured in the same way. ATF is about 7 weight. Makes a difference in a gearbox? Not really.

Cheers,

Stork

[mokwepa]

Well ive changed over to cheap, gas station bought, atf and even a novice like me can feel a big improvement.

I decided to give it a go after I got a Facebook message from Bruce le riche saying that him and his brother Brent, only use cheap atf in their beta and gasgas bikes. Well if its good enough for both of them, its gotta be good enough for me.

Im sticking to atf and will change it regularly.

[charlie chitlins]

All I can tell you is, I've taken apart several clutches to find the friction material detached from the plates.

Every one was using ATF.

You're on your own.

[mokwepa]

I think its cause it makes the clutch sooooo efficient that these motors just rip the material right off

Now im talking nonsense . I have no idea but ill still give it a go and see what happens.

[copemech]

Well, if that fat lad Bruce cannot manage to rip the plates off, no one can!

Tell him Copey said hello! Got to know him a bit while here in the states.

[dadof2]

In general ATF and gear oil contain much less detergent than muligrade engine oils. Use of detergent oil in engine not designed for it can increase wear significantly.

Some semi and fully synthetic oils dissolve clutch lining bonding materials, I would think ATF is much less likely to do this.

Why do some people think a gear box designed for 20w-40 should have ATF put in it? Would you put 20w-40 in your cars auto box?

Cheers

[billyt]

Dadof2 & Charlie Chitlins makes good points.

Mokwepa did you read about my experiment with the clutch oil? I re-posted here.

After many years of riding trials it finally happened to me, the dreaded “clutch drag”.

I guess it was inevitable, I had read about, heard people talk about, but never actually experienced it for myself. Can it be real or just a myth? I had read with much respect and interest Dan William’s research and solutions to his clutch dragging issues and read all the testaments to this being the miracle cure.

Being faced with the issue for myself I soon came to realize after all the years of riding trials bikes I have never had a need to really dig in and understand what is actually going on with a trials clutch.

But if I want to cure this dragging clutch on my new 2013 Beta 300cc Factory then I better educate myself on the clutch workings.

Standing upon Dan’s shoulders of the great work he has done it was a good starting point for me.

So you take out the plates and clean up all the glue crap between the fibre steps!

Okay, no doubt this works, but why? Surely there must be more to it than that?

Some people although in the minority have claimed this did not work for them,

Some people use ATF some use purpose made clutch/engine oil all with various results, but why?

So let the research begin.

Lets break clutch drag into three basic culprits:

• Mechanical
  
• Viscous Coupling
  
• Physics
  

• Mechanical:
  

The following fall into this category

Warped friction plates

Warped clutch plates

Swollen fibre plates

Notches in the outer clutch basket

Notches in the inner clutch basket

Nicks on the metal tabs of the friction or fibre plates

Not enough travel on the clutch push rods

A race clutch that has tight tolerances resulting in less clearance between plates when disengaged.

The clutch not separating evenly due to machining imperfections

• Viscous Coupling
  

For those of you not familiar with Viscous coupling it is basically a fluids ability to transfer motion between two plates a slight distance apart through the fluid itself. It is used on various 4WD systems and machinery.

• Physics
  

The viscosity of the engine oil used

The temperature at start up affecting engine clutch oil viscosity

The temperature of the engine clutch oil once the bike is warmed up.

Centrifugal force

Shear of the oil surface between two plates. Vacuum. Surface tension

Excess glue and residue in between the tabs causing the above

So lets clarify some of these things from a technical perspective.

• Shear of the oil surface between two plates, Vacuum, Surface Tension
  

If one takes two sheets of glass and places some oil in-between them and the presses them together the next person who comes along trying to separate them by pulling them apart in lateral (equal and opposite) manner will not be able to do so. They will have to slide them apart one surface going up the other down.

This is due to the oils surface tension and the air that was forced out upon squeezing them together has now created a vacuum. Multiple that by several clutches friction plates to fibre plates and one can quite easily see how the potential for a friction plate to stay stuck to a fibre plate is there. What is needed is a surfactant. A surfactant is basically what soap is, it breaks the surface tension on our hands, dishes to let the water actually get to the surface etc in essence making the water wetter by breaking down the surface tension.

But who in their right mind would put soap in their transmission or clutch LOL

2.0 Centrifugal force

Have you ever seen or tried the gyroscopic trick where you sit on a free moving rotating chair, you are given a bicycle wheel to hold at the axle. You hold the wheel upright an assistant spins the wheel and you try to turn it side ways. It tries to fight you and wants to stay upright spinning in its own orbit both axle and radial.

Well a spinning clutch is basically a gyroscope. It is spinning and wants to stay in its own radial orbit. You pull the clutch in, wanting it to separate in the axle direction by basically friction plate’s fibre plates moving away from each other. But the gyroscope effects are fighting it wanting the plates to stay in their own orbit.

Couple that with the above sheer friction of the oil and it is a wonder that plates actually separate at all.

So if your clutch drag issue is caused by surface tension, sheer of the oil, vacuum then Dan’s procedure or ATF is the way to go.

I propose that Dan’s procedure works by reducing the sheer of the oil surface tension, and helping break the vacuum. This is achieved by the filing of a ninety-degree angle when you are filing away the glue and crap. The sharpened ninety-degree angle edges helps break down the oil sheer, breaking the vacuum as each plate is spinning trying to slip against the other and the oil in between. The excess glue build up only adds to the problem by keeping the oil shear and vacuum going. With no distinct hills and valleys it is detrimental to plate separation.

I will also propose that this is the reason ATF works without the clutch mod as it sheer strength and vacuum causing characteristics are much different than regular clutch/engine oil.

And now for the caveat:

How does one know what one of the three basic areas i.e. Mechanical, Viscous Coupling, Physics or combination of all three is the culprit?

Well that's where my experimenting came into play.

Temperatures in the high 80F Dry weather, Sea level. Bike came with Motul engine oil. Changed to Mobile One Motorcycle oil after a few rides. I have used Mobile One for many years.

He is my scenario. With the original Motul oil the clutch dragged. The clutch continued to drag after changing to Mobile One motorcycle oil.

The clutch dragged inconsistently as I was riding it. It was good it was bad all through the day.

In the past with other Beta’s I have owned I could place the bike on a bike stand start the bike let it warm up and put it into 1^stgear pull the clutch in and the back wheel would stop or be very easily stopped by placing a hand on it. This was not the case with this Factory 300cc

What I needed was away to logically break this down into which one of the three main areas (Mechanical. Viscous Coupling, Psychics) was causing my issue.

Mechanical:

Brand new bike…. The reality of warped clutch plates or fibre plates hardly likely. Swollen fibre plates hardly likely. Notches in the basket not likely. Other wear or tear not likely due to age of bike (barely broken in).

But until I took the clutch apart I would not know for certain.

Viscous Coupling:

Trying to find out the Viscous Coupling characteristics of Motul or Mobile One was a long shot at best so I put that one to rest.

Physics:

There was nothing I could do about gyroscopic effects.

I was contemplating to dump a bottle of washing up liquid into my Mobile One engine oil. That would surely be a great surfactant it would break down the surface tension letting the plates separate. Okay bad idea! I needed another way to test the surface tension theory. As stated earlier I think Dan’s process works on reducing the shear and surface tension effect so why not try it out.

So off comes the clutch. Checked for all the mechanical potential issues warped disks etc no issue there. Checked out the clutch for Dan’s excess glue etc.

There was excess glue all right but did not really look that bad. But I followed Dan’s instructions, painstakingly removing all traces of glue etc from between the plates.

Re-assembled the clutch pack and re installed. Another 500cc of fresh Mobil One motorcycle oil and fired her up. Got her good and warm and…….. and …….. the clutch was still inconsistent. ****……… now what. Short of calling Dan I proceeded.

What other Physics issue could there be that I can actually control?

I still had the nagging notion that viscous coupling was not eliminated from the equation but I needed a way to test my theory. So why not dump all the oil out of the cases, with no oil in the bike Viscous Coupling would not be an issue and therefore I could verify or eliminate Viscous Coupling as a culprit.

I needed to do this in such a way as not to burn up my clutch or seize my gearbox.

Dumped the oil, put the bike on the stand, started it up revved it slowly, pulling in the clutch to fling off any oil in between the plates, letting the clutch go in a VERY gentle manner as not to burn the plates. Pulled the clutch in, Put the bike in 1^st gear let the clutch out slowly. The back wheel started to turn (of course) pulled the clutch in and PRESTO the back wheel stopped turning all by itself. Repeated this several times with constant results.

What the crap I thought! I do have some viscous coupling in this equation.

Now what? I cant run my bike without oil! So it was off to Google to find out what oils for wet based clutches where out there. No motorcycle oil manufacturer out there talks about viscous coupling specs of their clutch engine oil. So it was trial and error. To cut a long story short after testing many different oils I tried a bottle of Castrol 5W 40 RS 4T engine Clutch oil and it did the trick.

I can put my bike on the stand now start it, pull the clutch in and the back wheel stops. The clutch is consistent. I am happy.

But the story does not stop there.

Why is that Mobile One has worked for me all these years and now it does not?

Why is that Dan’s process works for some people and not others?

Here is my take on the whole clutch drag issue.

One has to first determine if it is Mechanical, Viscous Coupling, or Physics at play or a combination of all of the above.

No amount of glue removal will help if the clutch plates are warped or friction plates are warped. No glue removal will help with swollen fibre plates or notched tabs.

However if oil shear, vacuum, and surface tension are at play Dan’s process is the cats meow.

I feel I had two issue on my bike since it is a factory spec bike and the clutch is somewhat changed for this newer model it has a 2013/2014 factory clutch

“A race clutch that has tight tolerances resulting in less clearance between plates when disengaged”. This amplified the oil sheer and vacuum effect and surface tension.

Due to the tighter tolerances on this clutch the viscous effect was coming into play as the clutch plates do not separate as far and the Mobile One and Motul oil viscous coupling characteristics what ever they where contributing to drag while the Castrol Oil did not show signs of viscous coupling.

Dan’s process alone did not eliminate this effect but I am sure if one does his process on an none race clutch or one that has some wear on it will do the trick for you.

So before you trouble shoot your dragging clutch, do some homework and determine if it is mechanical, viscous coupling or physics at play.

So, if your bike does not show signs of drag on the ground, can you put it on a stand start it up put it into gear pull the clutch and have the back wheel stop all by itself?

If so you have great clutch.

Cheers

BillyT

[mokwepa]

Hi billyt

It was your post and dans that I studdied before doing the clutch mod and changing over to atf. I did it all at once so im not sure what had the biggest effect but my clutch is now very much smoother. Bruce le riche convinced me to go onto atf as he uses it and I can actually get it regularly where I live.

[tltel]

Billyt.

Good explanation and result. Not sure about starting your new bike with no oil in it but it was for a good cause.

I have used ATF in my 95 gasser since i've had it (three years or more). Works good for me. Never seen inside my clutch yet

TLTEL