To Trials Masters - Set Up Event Difficultly - To How Many Points?

[cycledave]

To all Trials Masters out there - When you set up an amature trials event, how many points would you expect the winner of each class have at the end of a one day event? How many points would you expect the 3rd place rider to have? How many sections would be set up for each class? How many loops would be ridden? How many hours allowed in the event?

Thanks!

Dave

[breagh]

This doesn't really answer your questions,but try to think who is going to come to your trial.

Then run the Trial to suit the majority/average rider you expect to attract.

[greychapel]

try not to fall into the trap of insisting on taking marks off the best riders....if the winner goes "clean" ,that's fine!

[rabie]

depends upon many varaible

how much land/decent section on the land have you?

how many observers have you?

how much day light have you?

what classes are you running (expert to beginers, pre 67, rigid, sidecar, pre 67 sidecar, trail bikes, etc)

on our bit of land we can put out 15 to 20 really good sections for good modern solos, while there are another 15+ sections avliable that would be too easy for good solos, however others have no where for sidecars, rigids, trail bikes, etc, etc

we run two big (100 to 130) trials in the winter - 20 sections, two laps - limiting factors being the land, number of observers and daylight. we've tried playing with the formula but queues with that number of riders and observing in the dark (4pm in mid winter is really dark!)

as to points, if the weather co-operates, then the class winner should be loosing a few marks (3 to 10) but depending on the size and ability range in the class the last person in that class could be a long way back. one of the things as a CofC I study is the "spread" of marks - how far from 1st in class to last in class. i also study whether certain sections for certain classes were possible (ie did everyone go though for 3 or 5's - signs that that section/route in that section was too hard). riders do enjoy a low scoring trial, but it makes discerning results harder, cryptically a higher scoring trial (say winner on 30) can be much more satisfying as there is opportunity to drop a 5 and still win/be competitive.

with enter in advance you have some idea of who / how many will turn up and this helps you plan, but as above don't get too fixated on one person in a class who is too good or too bad (eg if Raga turned up tomorrow, are you trying to take a mark off him?)

[feetupfun]

Winner in each class to score between zero and twenty points per day.

A suitable spread of scores within a class would see the median score being between 20 and 60 per day.

If anyone gets more than 100 points per day in a class when the winner gets less than 20 in that class, the rider with more than 100 is probably riding in the wrong class.

As rabie says, if you are doing stats on scores, make sure that they are actual riding scores not deliberate "fear" fives due to extreme severity, or I-ran-out-of-time fives

I always set lines in sections thinking of the capabilities of the least skilled rider I expect will be riding that class

The number of sections ridden per day depends on the temperature, rainfall and the length of the loop.

Perfect riding conditions and a short loop and not much queueing - 35 sections per day. Very hot - less laps. Rain expected - less laps. Long loop - less laps. Lots of riders per section - less laps.

[toofasttim]

If you have some hoppers, top class: must be able to hop to clean section. Intermediates: should be able clean without hopping but hopping could make section easier. Lowest grade. No hopping required. All traditional techniques.

if you have ten sections per lap, winner should be capable of cleaning 6-8 sections per lap. Midfield should be able to clean 3-6 sections per lap and 1/2/3/5 the rest. Bottom of field should clean about 3 sections.

Edited October 1, 2013 by toofasttim

[cub200]

Hi Cycledave

I've been setting sections for over 50 years in the UK and Australia and the biggest mistake made by clubs is to set sections to stop the best riders.

Set sections to please the majority not the minority but of course have a couple of them to take some marks to sort out the result.

If you have the usual closed circuit course that is predominant these days and you can find 10 or 12 sections and do 4 or 5 laps then set 2/3 sections to take some marks and the others cleanable by the average rider.

If the hotshots go home on a total of less than 10 marks lost they will be happy and the average riders go home on 20/40 marks lost they will also go home happy but more importantly they will come back for the next event.

I don't agree with whoever said the best riders can loose up to 20 marks per lap, thats way, way way too many, think how many Joe Blow would loose in last place,,,, you'd never see him again, we have to encourage guys to return, this applies to all types of bikes, modern, twinshock and classic.

Hope this helps

Cheers

Galps

[zippy]

In MOTA we have minimum 40 section attempts (usually 8 sections x 5 loops or 10 sections x 4 loops)

As far as severity goes (and this is just a generalization)

Beginner = In the start and find their way to the end, usually a turn or two (class is for learning section markers, etc..)

Novice = couple of turns and a small log or two, all can be ridden without touching the clutch

Intermediate = medium logs, tighter turns, some clutch control needed, turns on hill

Sportsman = most difficult half of Int. and easiest half of Adv. sections

Advanced = Big obstacles with plenty of run up/out and places to put feet, tight turns (hopping not necessary but makes it easier), steep hill climbs, etc..

Expert = Big obstacles hardly any run up/out with less spots to foot, tight and super tight turns, and a couple of sections that are "Screw em they are the top guys and can't get any higher in class" make it hard!

We do try to set the event for the middle of the pack for each class, while trying to maintain somewhat of a standard of difficulty in each class. Middle of pack should be able to get 2 or 3 pts on the section first loop and then progressively improve as the day goes on with cleaning most sections for the last 2 loops or so. We want the good riders to move up a class and keep the lower riders from dropping out/getting hurt. It does not really help the newly moved up riders if the sections are adjusted too much so that basically the Advanced lines are just Intermediate lines that year because a large group of riders moved up a class, they moved up for more of a challenge....... I hope that makes sense.

Of course factoring in weather conditions, available traction, etc... you want to have a challenging and fun yet safe event.

I just moved up to Expert class an event or so ago, Now my goal when riding is to finish the event with less than 200 points (200 is maximum available for those keeping track) Until I get better at riding I will have absolutely no problem with requesting a 5 if a section scares me. If that did bother me I would stay riding in Advanced.

I have been told by Biffsgasgas that his experience in an event in Europe was a great and fun time but the club level sections are set a bit harder than he has ridden in the States, so there is some "cultural differences" there.

[old trials fanatic]

Some really good answers here and I agree with all of them as when you set the Trial out it's all on gut feeling as we never know who will turn up. I've never set a Trial out with one person in mind as everybody pays the same entry fee so everybody deserves an enjoyable day out. I always aim to take up to 10 marks off the winner in each class. sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. Our Trial last Sunday was very dry and turned out quite easy apart from the Expert route which looking at the results was about right with the winner losing just 4 marks but he was on fire that day and with the rest in the teens to low 20's I think that route was about right.

Two things you have to remember. With todays multiple route trials some people will be riding the wrong route either due to ego as in "i'm an Expert" ( even though they don't always ride like one) or "I like being a big fish in a small pond" or perhaps they are recovering from injury etc. Also I wish I could get it through some peoples thick heads that some Trials at some venues will by the very nature of the venue be easy and some trials at other venues by the very nature of the venue will be harder.

Either way as many have said try to cater for the middle ability on all routes and you wont go far wrong plus don't even attempt to please all the people all the time as some people just love to moan. Funny how they never pick a bag of flags up and help lay out but take every opportunity to slag off the poor sap who does week in week out. So develop a thick skin. If you please just a third of your entry then sometimes that's as good as it gets but if you get just a couple of thank you's it seems all worth while.

Good luck you'll need it

Edited October 1, 2013 by old trials fanatic

[lineaway]

Everyone gripes (Or so it seems) at a hard event. Too easy seems not challenging enough. The best events are low scoring, but perfect obstacles for the class. Very hard to get right, but the grins are worth it!

[pete_scorpa3]

I always think that one rider on clean is the perfect score, however some people like more of a challenge than that.

Of course, the other risk is that a few riders score zero and you don't get a result!

I made this mistake a few years back in a trail bike trial, the forecast rain held off and the 30 sections were all to easy for the top guys. Fortunatley we always include a timed special test to split the ties, but can you imagine doing a 75 mile trial with 30 sections, finishing on one mark lost and due to having the slowest test time finishing in 16th place!

Yes, the top 16 were on one mark or less. Now that's too easy.

It would have been a different story had the rain come as forecast, but that does highlight the problem of setting easy trials.

Pete

[zippy]

OH CRAP!! I just agreed with parts of the post from OTF!!! What is the world coming too?????

Also OTF at this point in my trials riding I fall into the category of "I ride expert class" As in when someone says "oh, you're an Expert rider?!" I reply "Well, I ride the Expert class. That does not necessarily mean I AM an Expert"

Sounds like common theme is make the sections for the middle of the pack and hope the top three move up a class in a year or two.

on edit: I am thinking that if top rider takes less than 15 pts either the event was too easy or that rider should move up a class

Edited October 2, 2013 by zippy

[motovita]

Reading between the lines here it appears that riders in north America expect and appreciate a more challenging, higer scoring Trial (or perhaps we just don't ride as well), than those across the pond.

If I finish a Trial with ten points or less I consider it a poorly set event and don't feel that I got my moneys worth (I know I'm not that good a rider).

The standard I was taught many years ago is one point per section ridden from the winning rider in each class, except the lowest class, Novice, since they are the only class without the option of moving down a class. We typically ride 24-30 sections at an event.

[lineaway]

I agree with the one point idea with the old rules. Now one point per section could be three minutes in a hard spot positioning the bike totally wearing yourself out. A 30 point day today could easily be a 70 pt day by old rules.

[zippy]

Reading between the lines here it appears that riders in north America expect and appreciate a more challenging, higer scoring Trial (or perhaps we just don't ride as well), than those across the pond.

If I finish a Trial with ten points or less I consider it a poorly set event and don't feel that I got my moneys worth (I know I'm not that good a rider).

The standard I was taught many years ago is one point per section ridden from the winning rider in each class, except the lowest class, Novice, since they are the only class without the option of moving down a class. We typically ride 24-30 sections at an event.

I have had riders that have recently moved up a class tell me after the event "That (insert crazyish obstacle here) in that section was gnarly, but I never would have thought I could ride that if it wasn't put in a section"