nigel dabster Posted December 25, 2013 Report Share Posted December 25, 2013 Actually never thought of that so Bou's domination is increased by adding weight to ragas Fajardos and cabbys, nice one FIM! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guys Posted December 25, 2013 Report Share Posted December 25, 2013 (edited) I'm not sure I believe that conspiracy theory. Bou's bike was also well below 70 kg's and it wasn't as if Honda/Montesa couldn't win anything because the others had a weight advantage... Also, it's not in the interest of motorsport when one brand dominates the competition... Edited December 25, 2013 by guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted December 25, 2013 Report Share Posted December 25, 2013 Maybe they will handle better with extra weight ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob214 Posted December 25, 2013 Report Share Posted December 25, 2013 I read this on the Facebook page of Trialmotor Online Trial Shop: "~ THE NEW 2014 WC WEIGHT MINIMUM is a reality ~ Motorcycles up to 125cc - 67kg (147 U.S. pounds) Motorcycles over 125cc - 70kg (154.3 U.S. Pounds) Motorcycles up to 125cc - 67kg (147 U.S. pounds) Motorcycles over 125cc - 70kg (154.3 U.S. Pounds) Seriously, we must now add approximately 4.5kg (ten US pounds) to the standard production Gas Gas TXT Replica model. Simply to meet the minimum. (much more weight to the factory team bikes) So now, the three primary European TRIAL bike companies are trying to find a way to make their bikes substantially heavier. ummmm? With the small European Trial bike companies being the world leaders in advanced design-based weight-reduction technology, and having spent incredible amounts of time and money in the constant drive for less weight. And having reduced the average weight of standard Trial motorcycles 30kg since 1990, most of us in this business find this new rule to be a slap in the face. And what is most obvious, is that this rule has been done to appease a large Asian corporation who's World Championship team are running four-stroke engines. Even with their unlimited resources of engineering, money, and exotic materials, due to the innate design differences in four-stroke engines which make these engines naturally and substantially heavier, they have been unable to reduce the overall weight of their race motorcycles. As the motorcycles used by the three primary (and thousands of times smaller) European Trial bike companies have continued to progress and now that these companies have reached a point of machine build-quality that challenges the Asian giant, we have this new rule. So, with their incredible wealth and political power, the Asian company has in some manner been able to get the rules changed to force the small Euro companies to ADD WEIGHT to their race bikes. that is all....." this is one reason i don't like honda. way back when honda went on a quest rid the mx world of 2 stroke bikes. luckily i was done with my mx career and moved on to trials. i know lots of folks around here love their 4t's but not me. not interested. i can appreciate a weight limit that is done in the name of cost savings, reliability and so on. adding weight is not a real big deal and in real world experiences for the likes of me 10 lbs probably means next to nothing. but once again i love my light weight bike. i can imagine that the top riders would be able to ride, win and do their current level of magic with or without an added 10 lbs. but i can also imagine it sure is easier with a lighter bike. i think i could bet that honda still tries to advance their bike but i think it really hasn't changed a whole lot in the last few years. bou seems very comfortable on it and consistency is important. they have had that bike working great for a few years now and have a very limited amount of production bikes for sale from what i see compared to the other manufactures. the rest of the manufactures seem to have to update their bikes regularly for marketing purposes just to try and make sales. weight limits won't grow the participation at WTC events neither will no stop vs stop rules. i guess it's always the same, a new guy comes in and thinks he can do something better and change is usually the answer due to his beliefs. i'm not sure if the FIM and trials works the same as the FIA and formula one with a working group of manufactures voting on technical stuff but it might need it. i know the current top riders are not crazy about no stop so lets see what happens next year. even with the no-stop rule change we really didn't see any real difference in the results. i think the biggest problem is the same old problem. consistency of the observers around the world. that i think is more responsible for the results than the rule change. rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guys Posted December 25, 2013 Report Share Posted December 25, 2013 (edited) The only reason why 2 strokes where almost banned from motorsport had to do with the environment. (that's a fact, the rest is speculation) They pollute a lot more than 4 strokes, for instance fine dust particles. that's why 2 stroke mopeds were almost banned from Belgium roads, Or was Honda also behind this? Edited December 25, 2013 by guys 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axulsuv Posted December 25, 2013 Report Share Posted December 25, 2013 I have just one question , Can any of us actually state for FACT , what Bou's bike really weighs ??? And lets not forget the almost unlimited Honda budget compared to the other brands ... Could the rule be proposed to level the playing field ? 'cause we all know Bou doesn't need any help ... Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob214 Posted December 25, 2013 Report Share Posted December 25, 2013 The only reason why 2 strokes where almost banned from motorsport had to do with the environment. (that's a fact, the rest is speculation) They pollute a lot more than 4 strokes, for instance fine dust particles. that's why 2 stroke mopeds were almost banned from Belgium roads, Or was Honda also behind this? false statement sort of. 4t's burn motor oil, bad for the environment. 2t's can burn oil that is safe for the environment. premix oil came under fire with outboard motor's for boats and jetski's. oil manufactures came out with safe enviro friendly oil but it was to late the green tree huggers had already won. honda's 4t campaign began before the dogooders got going real well and honda just used that excuse to fuel the fire. yamaha actually beat honda to the punch by producing a 4t to win a championship before honda in the US, 97 or 98 i think. 4t's burn oil that is all bad just like cars. also i don't want to get into an argument about the enviro, i don't believe in deliberately trashing anything but i don't believe what bad science is telling us at the moment. world governments are using this against us to increase taxes world wide and basically try and shut down forward movement with anything other than batteries. which is worse for the enviro than any gas engine. axulsuv, i don't know if anyone outside honda knows the weight of bou's bike but based on what we know about works bikes, you build it then add weight where the rider wants it and then meet the limit. it's like that in all forms of racing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guys Posted December 25, 2013 Report Share Posted December 25, 2013 Sorry, I was under the impression we drove motorcycles, not boats or jetski''s. My mistake. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob214 Posted December 25, 2013 Report Share Posted December 25, 2013 Sorry, I was under the impression we drove motorcycles, not boats or jetski''s. My mistake. the reason i mentioned jetski and boats is that's another area where the green attack on 2t's started and the premix oil had to become enviro friendly and later would also carry over into offroad bike and atv's the industry doesn't separate their thinking the way we do. when one part of their business is under attack or being changed with regulations then they have to be concerned with every product they sell. if premix oil works for enviro friendly on water then it would work in bikes and atv's. what we see in our offroad fight for land i had to deal with years ago when i was jet skiing . i would hear it all the time people didn't want those noisy, smokey things in the same place they were trying to lay out and get a tan. speaking of boating honda even fought on that front with making outboard boat motors and bringing the enviro fight there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavydabber Posted December 25, 2013 Report Share Posted December 25, 2013 It's about making real active changes to save our beloved World trials sport from the long and painful death it's currently facing. The technological changes are wonderful and a benefit to us all, but there's no doubt in my mind that they are helping to ruin the World sport. I don't like these changes but I can totally understand it. Something needs to be done and thank fully Michaud has had the balls to do something. I won't need a new bike now Think I'd go with the above. Trials has moved so far away from the mainstream and become SO specialised both in (very expensive) machinery and skills that there are fewer and fewer people to become interested in it and take it up? Which means fewer bike sales (if there can be fewer in the current climate) and ultimately the death of the sport if you pursue the theory all the way to the end. Lots of biker people will watch the indoor and outdoor world championships and wonder at the skills involved in it - but how many will actually be inspired by it to try it, buy a bike and take it up in the sort of numbers that the manufacturers need to make it break even? Personal thought? I think we need a control tyre like so many other branches of motorsport.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guys Posted December 25, 2013 Report Share Posted December 25, 2013 the reason i mentioned jetski and boats is that's another area where the green attack on 2t's started and the premix oil had to become enviro friendly and later would also carry over into offroad bike and atv's the industry doesn't separate their thinking the way we do. when one part of their business is under attack or being changed with regulations then they have to be concerned with every product they sell. if premix oil works for enviro friendly on water then it would work in bikes and atv's. what we see in our offroad fight for land i had to deal with years ago when i was jet skiing . i would hear it all the time people didn't want those noisy, smokey things in the same place they were trying to lay out and get a tan. speaking of boating honda even fought on that front with making outboard boat motors and bringing the enviro fight there. Honda's been making 4 stroke outboard motors since 1964 (in the US sold since 1967) They've had succes with 4 strokes in road racing since the 60's. Honda just has a long history and tradition with 4 stroke engines, hell even their weed wackers have 4 stroke engines. To each his own, but I like to go with the facts and leave the speculation to others. I hope I didn't offend you, with it being christmas and all. But I'm going to shut up now, because we are way off topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted December 25, 2013 Report Share Posted December 25, 2013 # 69 yes i do read posts. Veterinen had a substantially lightened bulto and then added weight to the front forks to keep the front end down on steep gradients. Also some of those bashplates were not aluminium ally, stainless steel was experimented with to increase weight low down as in some circumstances this improved handling characteristics. That bantam is an abomination - Totally pointless - If a manufacturer wants to prove themselves do it in the modern world as Jotagas are doing. Don'y hijack and push up costs in classic trials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axulsuv Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 (edited) "axulsuv, i don't know if anyone outside honda knows the weight of bou's bike but based on what we know about works bikes, you build it then add weight where the rider wants it and then meet the limit. it's like that in all forms of racing. " Rob; Trust Me , I've been involved in just about every motorsport you can name as a mechanic , fabricator, engineer , crew chief , whatever ..for the past 35+years. And I ride trials for my own enjoyment and for the fact that until recently trials has always been a ride what ya brung kinda sport ... Displacement , size or weight was never controlled . I watched Bou's bike get unloaded and put together at the WR in TN. as I was camped 30 feet from the honda/montesa padock . And the mechanics that set it up exerted alot less effort moving and manhandling the bike bou rode in the event then they did the one he was practicing on , as his bike arrived late ...! For all I know they've got helium in the frame ! But as far as I know there has never been a minimum weight limit in trials . That and the fact that I never saw anyone get close to Bou's bike , there was always a uniform within a few feet of the bike , you could look , but don't get to close ! Even at the section I observed , one of the minders never left his bike when Bou was doing his walkabout ... Merry Christmas to all , and a Five free new year ! Glenn ,,, And for all we know it could be built in the Colin Chapman state of mind , if a part lasts longer than the race ,,,, it's to heavy ! Edited December 26, 2013 by axulsuv 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 # 69 yes i do read posts. Veterinen had a substantially lightened bulto and then added weight to the front forks to keep the front end down on steep gradients. Also some of those bashplates were not aluminium ally, stainless steel was experimented with to increase weight low down as in some circumstances this improved handling characteristics. That bantam is an abomination - Totally pointless - If a manufacturer wants to prove themselves do it in the modern world as Jotagas are doing. Don'y hijack and push up costs in classic trials. It was not the "lightness" of the Bulto which led to the addition of lead but the weight distribution and the fact vesty felt the front came up too easy with his weight back looking for grip, I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted December 26, 2013 Report Share Posted December 26, 2013 "axulsuv, i don't know if anyone outside honda knows the weight of bou's bike but based on what we know about works bikes, you build it then add weight where the rider wants it and then meet the limit. it's like that in all forms of racing. " Rob; Trust Me , I've been involved in just about every motorsport you can name as a mechanic , fabricator, engineer , crew chief , whatever ..for the past 35+years. And I ride trials for my own enjoyment and for the fact that until recently trials has always been a ride what ya brung kinda sport ... Displacement , size or weight was never controlled . I watched Bou's bike get unloaded and put together at the WR in TN. as I was camped 30 feet from the honda/montesa padock . And the mechanics that set it up exerted alot less effort moving and manhandling the bike bou rode in the event then they did the one he was practicing on , as his bike arrived late ...! For all I know they've got helium in the frame ! But as far as I know there has never been a minimum weight limit in trials . That and the fact that I never saw anyone get close to Bou's bike , there was always a uniform within a few feet of the bike , you could look , but don't get to close ! Even at the section I observed , one of the minders never left his bike when Bou was doing his walkabout ... Merry Christmas to all , and a Five free new year ! Glenn ,,, And for all we know it could be built in the Colin Chapman state of mind , if a part lasts longer than the race ,,,, it's to heavy ! There has been a minimum weight in wtc for a few years now. Was next to Bous bike when it was weighed in France 2012 and it was just above the limit at 67kgs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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