Fim Minimum Bike Weight Increase 2014? What?

[old trials fanatic]

It would have made a LOT more sense if the Min weight limit was total of rider and bike combined.

Well that's my thought same as F1.

[dadof2]

F1 and sense is not a combination that springs to mind

All the drivers are having to become skinny midgets to be competitive, no more Mansells or Fangios.

On the subject of minimum bike weight I would be in favour of FIM gradually increasing weight say by 0.6 to 1.0 Kg per year until it reaches 74 or 75 Kg.

[steveo]

F1 and sense is not a combination that springs to mind

All the drivers are having to become skinny midgets to be competitive, no more Mansells or Fangios.

On the subject of minimum bike weight I would be in favour of FIM gradually increasing weight say by 0.6 to 1.0 Kg per year until it reaches 74 or 75 Kg.

Give it a rest man, dadof2 and sense are not a combination that springs to mind on this topic...

[nigel dabster]

On the subject of minimum bike weight I would be in favour of FIM gradually increasing weight say by 0.6 to 1.0 Kg per year until it reaches 74 or 75 Kg.

Thats cleared that up then, was there any doubt?

And remind us why a weight increase would a) be good and b)how it would work at club level?

[eddie_lejeune]

Give it a rest man, dadof2 and sense are not a combination that springs to mind on this topic...

Close the topic, stevo has had the final say!

[guys]

What brings a bit more weight and is of benifit to us?

- Thicker/longer bash plates (are very popular)

- thicker/stronger dog bones

- stronger engine mounts

- frame pipes that have a thicker wall section so the welds are stronger

- and many other things I've mentioned in a previous post such as stronger kick starter mechanism on some brands.

But strangely enough nobody had any comment on that statement.

I'm not saying bikes have to weigh 5 or 10 kgs more but a little bit more wouldn't hurt us.

Just ask the guys who have to buy second hand bikes and who get stuck with frames that are cracked and so on...

And of course there will always be bikes that had a very hard life that get damaged no matter how strong you make them, but these are the exceptions that cannot be avoided.

[eddie_lejeune]

one rule is never to buy a second hand bike of an expert rider

[laser1]

You can buy heavier bikes right now. Why not leave it at that? Folks who want reliable, can buy the heaviest bike they can find if they think it helps. Meanwhile, those who want a light bike and are willing to put up with any lack of reliability (real or not)should be able to do the same.

What does forcing people to buy heavier bikes accomplish - nothing but animosity and further division of a small group IMO. Leave it alone. Let the individual decide whats best for there own needs.

Why isnt anyone pushing for quieter bikes. Its well established that more sound = less ground. If people were really interested in growing the sport, those type of issues would be of primary importance. Meanwhile, 4t's still get to be obnoxiously loud and turn off land owners. Im all for making all bikes less noisy.

Edited April 23, 2014 by laser1

[timp]

one rule is never to buy a second hand bike of an expert rider

Quite often expert riders will move their bikes on after only a couple of months and in immaculate condition.

[dadof2]

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." (Albert Einstein)

Let me make it clear that I do not favour increasing weight just for the sake of. The reason I am in favour of a weight limit of around 74 Kg is to increase reliability by making some components less fragile. Just have a look round some of the bike specific forums and it is easy to find plenty of examples of where a bit more metal would have made breakage less likely.

Also it removes the need for expensive lightweight materials. Even the F16 fighter was designed to minimise the use of titanium and carbon fibre to keep costs down

Nor do I look back on heavy bikes of yesteryear with rose tinted glasses. Many of the pre 1995 bikes had faults, Mont frames used to break at the headstock and their gearboxes gave trouble, Bultos chassis welds cracked, the chrome came off the brake drums and bearings came loose in the hubs. Ossas brakes used to give up at the sight of water and their sump bungs could punch up into the gearbox. The peak of reliability was probably the late 1990s to early 2000 with bikes such as JTR gassers, TYZ yams and Mont / Honda 2T Cotas. But all these weigh around 85 to 87 Kg.

Take a look at the Beta and Gasgas SSDT preparation guides, and JS Jnr.s comments. It is pretty well acknowledged that modern bikes have become fragile.

A weight increase of a few Kgs particularly when most of it would be concentrated low down would not be that noticeable, probably not at all to most riders.

Until the present limit designers have had to concentrate on reducing weight as their primary goal. Increasing the limit will allow them to make improvements where presently they may have to compromise to keep weight down. Instead of a race to the bottom weight wise, development will be able to concentrate on reliability, suspension improvements, torque characteristics and any other area they think will give competitive advantage. It will also enable manufacturers to re design and strengthen parts that have proved to be too weak without having to worry about the extra weight.

As in previous post not all done at once but introduced gradually over several years. I would not apply the limits to arena / X type trials leaving manufacturers free to modify bikes for these very specialised show parts of the sport.

The following is what I would like to see done and why.

1) Sprockets to be free from holes, increase safety, increase strength, reduce manufacturing costs

2) Discs to have minimum thickness specifications, continuous inner and outer radii, No drilling in rear disk pad area and limited drilling in front disc pad area. Reduces manufacturing costs, reduces wear rate, reduces chance of breakage

3) Front and rear brakes to be restricted to 2 pistons per caliper on same axis. Reduces manufacturing costs

4) Set minimum weight limit for rear shock linkage and maximum bearing stress rating. All linkage bearings to have secondary oil seals and be fitted with grease nipples. Would be slight initial cost increase but more than offset by increased reliability, less breakage and easier servicing.

5) Ban the use of titanium, magnesium and carbon fibre. All materials including plastics to be readily weldable grade. Reduces cost makes parts repairable.

6) Specify minimum thickness and weight for sump guard. Sump guard to protect rear suspension linkage, underside of frame in footrest mount area and extend a specified distance up sides and front of engine. Would be an increase in manufacturing costs but long term saving on damage to other parts and increased reliability.

7) Specify a minimum coolant capacity and require a see through header / catch tank and “boil vent tube” be in easy view of the rider. Specify a minimum kW rating for the radiator. Slight increase in cost but increase in reliability.

8) Specify minimum thickness for engine casings. Slight increase in cost but less chance of breakage and quieter.

9) Specify minimum widths for gasket faces, slight increase in cost but greater reliability due to reduced chance of leakage

10) Wheel and swinging arm spindles to be steel with standard locking nuts as appropriate. Reduces cost and increased reliability.

11) Specify minimum fastener diameters particularly on sump guards, sub frames, engine case, exhaust mounts and frequently removed items. Increase strength, increase reliability, reduced thread stripping

12) Specify a minimum seat height about 60 mm higher than present. Aim is to allow more room for better air filtration and silencing.

13) Specify minimum material thickness for exhaust parts to increase resistance to crash damage and reduce noise.

14) Fork sliders to have minimum thickness. Increases resistance to damage or breakage.

15) Fork stanchions to be steel, readily re platable and the sliding area fitted with protectors

16) Adjustable forks not permitted. Damping can be varied by oil viscosity changes and various springs offered to suit riders weight. Reduction in costs

Another area that needs regulating is EFI / ECUs. OBD II was introduced for road cars ad even F1 uses standard ECUs.

Should the weight limit be applied to Clubmen? My feeling is it won’t be necessary. The older lighter bikes will wear out and become obsolete. Just apply it to WTC, new bikes and championships

I know I will get a fair bit of criticism from some regarding this post but I know many riders in the north of England would welcome such changes. The topic of discussion at events and practice sessions is not about bike weight, it is about poor reliability, easily broken parts and high parts costs.

Obviously the situation and opinions may be different in other areas of UK or other countries.

[sherpa325]

I don't know of anyone who wants to ride a heavier bike, trials bikes have become progressively lighter over the past 40 years. This continued development has meant we currently have the lightest production bikes ever. This low weight certainly helps younger riders gain skills and move on to full size bikes sooner as well as keeping older riders in the sport. Balancing, hopping, everything is easier on a lighter bike, particularly for lower level riders. Your argument makes no sense at all. Weight limits were bought into other forms of motorsport to stop 'Factory Lightweight Specials' these bikes/cars providing a real advantage for the factory rider/driver over the privateer. All the current production bikes[except Honda] are under the weight limit so no such advantage exists. Since the 1970's Trials bikes have always been the lightest dirt bikes in production. I have seen frames fatigue and develop cracks since I began riding. I have seen cracks in Suzuki, Yamaha[including the mono] Bultaco, Montesa, Italjet, Fantic,Scorpa,Gasgas, Sherco and Beta all over a 40 year period. You are not buying a family car you are purchasing a machine capable of riding a world championship event, what other sport can you do this in. This is where we have ended up because the market has dictated it, the cheaper bikes like the economy gasgas and xispa bikes don't sell.

[tony27]

What you are proposing is a very good way to kill trials, which manufacturer other than Honda would be able to completely retool to meet your new specs & then sell no spares as you're saying everything has to be either unbreakable or repaired? Any parts they do sell would have to be at hideous prices, have you ever looked at what mx & enduro spares cost & the sales volumes are multiple times higher

Cost of new bikes would also have to increase as the manufacturers don't make much on the cost of a new bike at the moment & have to rely on selling spares to remain ecomonically viable

Certain parts of what you would like are possible like thicker bashplates & tubing for the frames, change of material for spindles although then you'll get people complaining about having to cut their swingarms out due to lack of maintainence/grease caused seizures.

Going backwards in technology for brakes would hit a lot of resistance, the 4 piston calipers are cheap, I don't think the old 2 piston fronts were any cheaper & weren't anywhere near as good

Marzocchi is the only manufacturer that uses aluminium fork tubes unless the new 4rt has them so you aren't going to accomplish much there

Basically a lot of your issues seem to come from 1 manufacturer who aren't likely to see any reason to spend huge amounts of money changing their successful bikes to make them perform worse than what they make at the moment

Biggest issue I still see is noisy 4 strokes, while manufacturers are allowed to make exhaust systems with easily removed restrictors & baffles to get around noise limits knowing full well that they will be removed by the owners as soon as possible or fit aftermarket exhausts with minimal silencing riding areas will continue to be lost. All major events should be using noise meters like they have to in mx & road racing if we hope to keep riding

Edited April 24, 2014 by tony27

[steveo]

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." (Albert Einstein)

There you go again, jumping to conclusions, I never met Albert, I'm not that old.

Edited April 24, 2014 by steveo

[eddie_lejeune]

Quite often expert riders will move their bikes on after only a couple of months and in immaculate condition.

Quite often they will have had a hard life.

[dadof2]

Wow, light the blue touchpaper and stand back as they say

Steveo, not jumping to any conclusions at all, I just rather like the Einstein quote as it highlights that different people can have different ideas of common sense.

You Antipodeans certainly seem to like your light bikes.

If there was widespread desire for light technically advanced bikes why are'nt Ossas and Jotagas selling in larger numbers?

I don't have any sales figures to confirm my thoughts but in my area there seems to be a drift towards Montesa Hondas as people perceive them to be solid and reliable. 4RT ownership is definitely on the increase despite a scarcity of dealers.

Something I need to reply to is that that some of the replies to my post contain quite blatant inaccuracies. I am not going to go through them all but it would take too long so I will stick to a few examples.

1) Seals cost far less than bearings and if properly specified and greased last for many years. I recently bought about 800 seals of various sizes for about £25. One set of linkage bearings can be £60 to £100.

2) My proposals will kill the sport? What will kill the sport is unfettered technical development, bikes you can't fix at home and high costs.

3) Jotagas have demonstrated that it is possible and cost effective to make ongoing component changes in small batch sizes (50?)

Plenty of manufacturers have killed themselves off without any restriction on development - I will start a new post in general trials talk on this

Incidentally I have been involved in the manufacture of lightweight components to improve performance in speed events. These included a lightweight aluminium framed seat (to replace perforated steel), titanium wheel spindles and fasteners (to replace steel) , lightened hubs and low friction bearings and lubricant. This helped set a British mile record near York in the 1980s.

Edited April 24, 2014 by dadof2