nigel dabster Posted April 20, 2015 Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 Go karting and leave us alone...... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted April 20, 2015 Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 As trials bikes have got lighter, sales have declined. As push bikes have got lighter sales have increased 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted April 20, 2015 Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 (edited) As a life lesson just because there are two juxtaposed facts it doesnt make your conclusion true. Edited April 20, 2015 by nigel dabster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazybond700 Posted April 20, 2015 Report Share Posted April 20, 2015 (edited) This was the original point, ie there is no reason to introduce a rule that serves no purpose. No one wants a heavier bike, we've clearly established that. Even if there were a point to the rule which could make bikes more reliable (they are anyway) the most crucial factor is to properly enforce it and police it. This could happen at WTC level but has never been done, and without wishing to repeat myself (I am for dadoffs benefit apparently he's forgotten) at club/centre/and probably national level its a complete non starter. so succinctly, a weight rule will not produce reliability. Maybe this also has to do with the financial situations, and I think the market is also ''troubled'' by good second hand bikes available. Why buy a new bike if an trials bike from around year 2000 can work brilliant aswel? If globaly not more people start riding, then there is no need for more bikes. (ok some people buy a new one each year, and some die) Edited April 20, 2015 by crazybond700 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 (ok some people buy a new one each year, and some die) It it the bikes or the people that die............... or both? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazybond700 Posted April 21, 2015 Report Share Posted April 21, 2015 It it the bikes or the people that die............... or both? Eventually.... But I really think the older bikes are partly killing the sales of new ones. Just because that bikes where too good. (gg editions e.g. super reliable and rideable for the beginner and advanced) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 (edited) To list all my thought on this would result in an even longer post than I have written so far. If bikes were cheaper more would be sold. Reducing weight, especially once exotic materials are used adds significantly to cost. All other things being equal reducing weight reduces robustness, crash resistance, longevity and reliability. Weight reduction is a race no one can win it therefore represents a waste of development effort and adds to product price. To be competitive a bike has to be on or near the minimum weight limit, this means having a light engine or compromising the design elsewhere. If the minimum weight limit were higher the engine could be heavier. The need for a light engine means to be competitive a manufacturer has to develop a trials specific engine which has few or no other use. Low volume of trials sales does not justify development of such an engine or results in development costs having to be recouped over a small volume of sales. If engines could be heavier they (or near variants) would have other applications. This may tempt volume manufacturers like Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki back into trials. Edited April 28, 2015 by dadof2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 With such a reasoned post its difficult not to believe its all tripe. But it is. To list all my thought on this would result in an even longer post than I have written so far. (Thank god) If bikes were cheaper more would be sold.(Absolutely not maybe the odd bike here or there but a bit cheaper where are these riders sitting on beck banks waiting for a new bike at 3k? Arent they the ones riding second hand bikes?) Reducing weight, especially once exotic materials are used adds significantly to cost. (There are very few production bikes with exoctic materials the use of titanium/magnesium etc is minimal) All other things being equal reducing weight reduces robustness, crash resistance, longevity and reliability. (Absolute bo((olcks aluminium spindles being a perfect example of where your over generaliastion and sweeping statements simply are untrue) Weight reduction is a race no one can win it therefore represents a waste of development effort and adds to product price. (A bultaco from the 80's is much heavier than the current bikes so whats not winning about a 2015 production bike over that, isnt it progress?) To be competitive a bike has to be on or near the minimum weight limit, this means having a light engine or compromising the design elsewhere. (if this were true then no 4rt's would be sold?) If the minimum weight limit were higher the engine could be heavier. (it isnt enforced, it never will be we've been through this several times please do not bother to regurgitate your "facts" which are lies.) The need for a light engine means to be competitive a manufacturer has to develop a trials specific engine which has few or no other use. ( if this were the case the current engines all at least basically10 years old would have been lightened and re designed?) Low volume of trials sales does not justify development of such an engine or results in development costs having to be recouped over a small volume of sales. (ten years again look around you numpty) If engines could be heavier they (or near variants) would have other applications. (so now you want trials bike manufacturers to sell (in your eyes unreliable bikes) in different disciplines to further stretch r and d? This may tempt volume manufacturers like Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki back into trials. not any time soon 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Most trials engines are already pretty well near the limits of lightness as the GasGas Pro engines frailty all to well demonstrates. Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki, KTM and others all have 250 4T MX engines producing about 40 HP. Close variants of these engines are used in Enduro, trail and road racing. However in being robust enough for those higher HP ouputs these engines are too heavy for trials. If there were a properly enforced minimum weight set at an appropriate level these engines could be adapted for trials with only minimum modification. This may encourage these volume manufacturers into trials to the benefit of consumers. These manufactures (Honda / Mont excepted) are very unlikely to enter trials if they have to develop a special light engine for a low volume market. I have nothing against aluminium spindles and have never said that, however they do cost more than steel spindles and the combination of large diameter aluminium spindle and compact lightweight hub does result in accelerated wheel bearing wear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 Dad off = Rubbish. Beta and sherco as light as can get? Frailty of gas gas (oh please change the record) lets see if the ssdt riders agree/prove otherwise? Which mx engine is used in road racing? Again you go on about enforcing weight limits how? Please Explain? "May encourage" "volume manufacturers" "consumers" are we talking about the same sport? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Dad off = Rubbish. Beta and sherco as light as can get? Frailty of gas gas (oh please change the record) lets see if the ssdt riders agree/prove otherwise? Which mx engine is used in road racing? Again you go on about enforcing weight limits how? Please Explain? "May encourage" "volume manufacturers" "consumers" are we talking about the same sport? I never said Beta and Sherco as light as can get. Frailty of GG - just read the GG forums for evidence I did not say an MX engine is used in road racing. Some of the 2T 125 GP engines were very very close to MX engines but when the FIM changed the 125s to 4T Moto 3 they deliberately drafted the regulations to prevent the use of MX engines (rules condemned by quite a few) however the 4T technology developed in 250 4T MX engines was very easily applied to the Moto 3 engines. Enforcing weight limits - use a set of scales, my motorcycle MOT tester has done this for years, no problems When the 2T trials engines were very similar to their MX, Enduro and trail counterparts in the 1970s many manufacturers took advantage of this to produce bikes for all 3 disciplines, including Ossa, Monntesa, Bultaco, Yamaha, Kawasaki and Suzuki. This is no longer the case as trials engines have become too specialised and the volume of sales does not justify development costs. If the trials bike rules were drafted appropriately so that a variation of an enduro or MX engine could be competitive more manufacturers might be tempted to enter trials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Why would a manufacturer make a trials bike if the sales do not justify it? How could you possibly change the regulations to allow a multi discipline motor? If and such a big IF we could get regs to allow your crack pot idea how would you accomodate the "new regulation" bike into competitition at world international country and club level? For once Dad off answer the questions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 (edited) I never said Beta and Sherco as light as can get. You said "most trials engines are as light as can get" so the mont scorpa are too light as well as beta and sherco? Frailty of GG - just read the GG forums for evidence Anecdotal and not backed up by any kind of reasoned evidence. Edited May 18, 2015 by nigel dabster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 I never said Beta and Sherco as light as can get. You said "most trials engines are as light as can get" so the mont scorpa are too light as well as beta and sherco? Frailty of GG - just read the GG forums for evidence Anecdotal and not backed up by any kind of reasoned evidence. Exactly where did I write "most trials engines are as light as can get" State the post number and line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 POST 377 above twatty features "Most trials engines are already pretty well near the limits of lightness" there, now apologise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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