old trials fanatic Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 Interesting to read of differing opinions regarding electronic ignition. Should I have stayed with the original points system or was I right to swap to electronic? To be honest, I don't really know. But I do know that when the bike arrived out here in France the engine wouldn't rev out and was way down on power so I had it delivered to a top trials shop in Kent for surgery. Have just received confirmation that the operations were successful (fitting of new engine seals etc. plus 'leccy ignition) and the bike now runs fine. However, bike surgeon recommends replacement of worn Mk.1 Amal carb to make perfect. Do these expenses ever stop? NO !! but that's all part of the fun modifying and improving all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
340villiers Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 Hi. The fitting of modern sparks to any bike should be a fit and forget affair, these kits are transforming Classic engines, If they are fitted incorrectly you will end up with very poor results, this usually ends up with A THIS IGNITION IS CRAP. spending hours/ days trying to get it to run, working anywhere of say 2" either side of TDC. This then results in pulling it all off and going back to STD parts. As with the Villiers motors, after market and karting parts ie. Ignition stator plates not drilled as per original Villiers stator, so Bertie Bantam tries fitting a kit to his bike, this results in the timing being miles out. Having followed the instructions precisely, the end result is a bike that does not run or runs poorly, very frustrating. Most kits use TOP DEAD CENTRE as a reference and also have a F or FA or at least a blob of paint as a Fire or Full Advance timing mark. Setting up the timing with a degree disc, then marking out timing marks with a blob of paint or a centre punch on the flywheel etc, You can then use a strobe to set up the timing more accurately, watching the timing marks line up, you can also see that your built in advance curve is working as it should!!! The best thing is knowing exactly where your spark is, also using a strobe if you are experiencing any problems later on, I have seen new coils out the box FAIL!!!!! All just to p*** you off, its all part of the fun. You can pick up a cheap Timing Strobe Light for a couple of pounds. Willie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon v8 Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 Just wondering why John as I much prefer the motor fitted with electronic. Power delivery is way improved and the ones I have tried with points always feel flat as a fart and woolly off the bottom and don't rev out or pull anyway near as well at the top end either. Basically they run as crap as they did back in 1967 when I had my first Greeves Scottish and what a pile of poo that was. So why replace with an inferior ignition? That's what I would have thought too,but they claim to have had reliability problems with the electronic systems.One of them earns a living from P65 bikes and really knows his stuff,I can only say his bikes always seem to run well.I'll probably see him on sunday so I'll find out what make of kit he had trouble with. I guess its a bit like Lucas and BTH mags on old four stroke bikes,whilst a lot of folk fit Electrex world kits on HT5's etc, I don't have any problems with the mag on mine.As long as they are rebuilt properly they are no problem. I think Bantams and Cubs are the two bikes where electronic is an absolute must. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted January 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 Hi, JonV8 has the job sussed!! As long as we relied on magnetos made by Lucas (The Prince of Darkness - some of the company's early advertising used to say!) or BTH (British Thomson Houston of Rugby), particularly if they were properly maintained rarely gave problems - in years of using them I never had a single problem. The Villiers engined machines were not quite the same - they began to introduce us to pop and bang - but gradually we began to spot the problems and realised that a weak primary coil in the flywheel wasn't helping. Using the lighting coils from the road bikes flywheel innards to boost the primary voltage transformed the bikes - so most owners did just that. Then came the dreaded energy transfer systems beloved by the Triumph/BSA group for the C15s and Cubs. As an ignition system frankly it was about as much good as a trapdoor in a canoe. The introduction of electronic ignition was, in my experience, not the perfect answer. As an electronics engineer by basic training I am totally accustomed to the fact that all electronic ignitions include components and all components have a predictable failure rate. Sadly the old adage 'you pay for what you get - and you get what you pay for' rules the roost and too many of the electronic ignition systems that I have helped to fix merely required replacement of a very cheap component for a more expensive - but more reliable one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialrider Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 (edited) Deryk ,I belive a builder I uesd to work with in the late 60s a guy called Pat White was a works DOT rider ?(South Midlands Area) ,There is a photo of him in one of your books riding in the scottish is this correct .Simon (Right in one, Simon, there is a photograph of Pat White in one of my Scottish books, as you say, and here it is, for everyone to see, Cheers, Deryk) Edited February 28, 2014 by laird387 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted January 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 Hi trialsrider, I'm not sure whether Pat White ever had a works bike - more likely, I would think, he was supported by a local dealer. Does anybody know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted February 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Hi, One of the Witley club élite W F Billy Elliot who often rode as a club team member, along with Derek and Gordon Adsett. Here he is on the way to a winning team place for Witley, and also a Special First, in the 1963 Beggars Roost which was a very, very wet trial. Then again DOTs, made in Salford not a million miles from the Manchester Ship Canal, should surely be used to the rain ..... Enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted February 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Hi, A very early DOT image, probably at Harvington, near Evesham in 1954, with a very young Dave Langston aboard his first ever bike, with the 8E Villiers 197cc motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted February 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Hi, Another day - another DOT. This time it is Scot Jackie Williamson with his DOT in the 1961 Manx Two Day trial. Enjoy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted February 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 Hi, In the 1998 Sam Cooper Union Jack trial organised by the Stratford-on-Avon club for the Sammy miller series, Peter Remington from Kendal, takes his DOT through a well known old midlands section, Saintsbury. Peter was trying to make the steering lighter, so he had shortened the leading link forks to get to what he felt was the ideal wheelbase of 52.5 inches - we never could get him to come clean as to whether it worked........ Enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasher46 Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) Hi, The ordinary 9E iron barrelled DOTs were reasonably priced - so relatively popular, here is just such a model ridden regularly around 1965 in the Bristol area, by Mike Naish, who contributed a trials column to ORR for me. Here Mike is in a Crediton club trial in 1964. Enjoy Hey that's me-I lost this photo 20 years ago. There should be one other in Deryk's archive-Nice to see it again. Taken by ace photographer and rider Ken Haydon. Edited February 17, 2014 by andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparks2 Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Hey that's me-I lost this photo 20 years ago. There should be one other in Deryk's archive-Nice to see it again. Taken by ace photographer and rider Ken Haydon. Hi Is Ken Haydon Ian Haydon's father ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodt Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Yes Ken Haydon is / was Ian Haydon's father. Ken gets a mention in the Max King Trials Book. He showed Max the ropes when he started Trials riding in the late 40's HiIs Ken Haydon Ian Haydon's father ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparks2 Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Thanks Rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted February 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Hi, In late 1951 Triss Sharp, snr bought and then prepared this 197cc DOT for his son Bryan. Bryan rode it so well that in 1953/4 he was given a works bike by Burnard Scott-Wade. Enjoy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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