physco Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 i think you have a fair shout on this subject jools.why can this system for all nationals not work on the acu grading system?.the lower standard of riding you are the later you start.do you people out their not think this is a fair shout.forget the clubman top rider issue what about the majority of the riders who ride the events,the "factory stars" are a minority the "clubman" are not.how many riders at nationals do the hard route as opposed to the riders who do the clubman route,the grass routes of the sport?.ask any of the importers who sell the most bikes for them,the "factory stars" or the "bike and bits stars",ie good centre runners?.this way their would be none of this enter early get a late number,every-body could enter up to the maximum limit and then the numbers could be sorted on a fair basis?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdmc Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 What ACU grading? AJ entry was 21 Nov, 16 Int and 48 Exp. On the Nov entry the best ride regarding failures was 5 x 5. The worst 26 x 5. Every novice had a clean. On the expert entry the best was 0 x 5 (this was achieved by one rider, not the winner) the worst 12 x 5. The final result show 2 Novices (one of which was over 40) beat all the intermediates plus some of the experts Every section had a clean. There were only 6 riders who were not eligable for the Novogar C/ship. These riders were in the top 10 positions. The final result was won by an expert. The lowest postion of an expert was 48th. The non starters were not all early numbers. They were spread across the entry. Now if anyone out there wants to assist on course plotting for the AJ trial in 2006 or no doubt any other round of the c/ship, I am sure the clubs would welcome your expertise. Back to my original question, What is a 'clubman'. Another question - when does an expert become an intermediate or an intermediate become a novice. In the Yorkshire Centre they do have a set of conditions that cover this. Does yours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuartc Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 Most of the AJ sections this year would not alter if you were 1st or last rider up, (or down) them reet gud do it wer 05_aj.doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 Good to see the results appear somewhere on here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdmc Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 Still trying to get them on an a4 sheet. Phone keeps ringing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jools Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 I am not getting at the clubs or anything!!! This is meant to be a clubmans national series - yet, no-one seems to no what a clubman is Starting orders for the top riders needs to be revised!, and also perhaps a little grading/order to these series would make it more enjoyable for the majority. a lot of the events have had the sections set out for the minority and not the majority. Sorry to moan but everyone I speak to thinks the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdmc Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 Not having a go at you Jools but who is a top rider. Someone who gets his name in the TMX every week? The AJ was set out with the majority in mind (from the grading entered on the entry forms) but there was also sections plotted also for the lesser skilled riders. The clerk of Course only mark out a course on what he believes will be a challanging course for all, including the novices. Looking at the results for the AJ, I belive he got it right. There were only 6 section out of the 44 that took the majority of the marks from all the riders. Yes there were some high scores but with tempretures in the 80's the heat did take its toll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tordijarres Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 I agree with Jools in regards to better riders getting later numbers. I can't remember the last time I saw Dan Thorpe/James Lampkin or whoever in the first 10 riders out of the blocks (although J Lampkin was early-ish in the Chris Carter-and went on to have one of his poorer rides....) Perhaps clubs think the top guys won't show unless they're given special treatment-and perhaps they're right in that assumption. Jools, I rode with you at the front of the field in the Dave Rowland, and I have to say that despite what some of the "expert" spectators were saying, yesterday, I defy any sane person to state that they reckon their chances of a good result in the AJ would benefit from riding early, some of those streams were lethal early on. I finished on time, but had to ride about 4th or 5th through the sections to do so for the latter 1/3 of the event. Then there's the getting told off for displacing/firming small stones - rather rich when: a) We're already working at disadvantage of riding early The following riders benefit anyway c) When the massed throngs arrive subsequently, some top 15 finishers literally pick up and move LARGE rocks, unpenalised d) You never hear them tell off the "top lads" As this site is meant to be for constructive criticism, ACU, here it is: Seed the "top lads" - based on previous years Novogar points scorers+additional Brit Champs "players", place them in the middle 1/3 (or whatever) of the field and alternate the start order for those seeded riders, between events. Then hold a GENUINE (i.e. devoid of regional/ club bias) ballot for the rest of the start order before and after the seeded riders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tordijarres Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 PS BDMC, I sincerely wish to thank you for the huge amount of effort that went into a great event. I am not having a go at the section plotting, certainly not the organisation, but merely the riding order, which happens in all the nationals I have ridden in. Some guidance from the ACU over how to arrange this fairly would be welcome. Regarding the observers, I think they're just sharpening their teeth for the world round...but please let them be even-handed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdmc Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 We are now getting somewhere. Look at last years results. Put them in the middle 1/3 alternating the start numbers for each event. What happens if a 'top lads' misses an event? When/where do we hold the ballot. ACU House? How will the riders know it was a fair ballot. Still no answer to my questions in prevous posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tordijarres Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 BDMC, I think it will be apparent if it wa s a fair ballot, ie "Club X's" riders will not all be towards the back of "Club X's " national...and there will be variation, allowing for chance, between events. As long as there is a recognised system, I for one would trust the organisers, no need to book the "Grand Lodge" yet!. If a "top lad" decided to miss a certain national then he wouldn't gain any points that round would he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuartc Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 Good to see the results appear somewhere on here Tried sending them to you within 1hr of trial finishing but the phone lines in Halton Gill are still wind up type. Tha can only wind up for so long had to get to the pub for some food, as you know I dont drink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jools Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 (edited) Sorry BDMC! I'm not getting at you, i've heard nothing but praise for the AJ Trial (I can't say owt because hav'nt done it ) Just while we were on this thread we just wanted to say something (in general) which happened to be on your post topic ,sorry Just thinking about it now, some of the trials have prize money! talking Edited July 11, 2005 by Jools Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdmc Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 Ballot 3 entries recieved seperatley, A, B and C. Each request to ride with each other because they are travelling up together. Do I put them in the ballot together or as single entry? Single entry, a fair ballott? Rider A is No 1 start at 10:00am. Rider C is number 100 starts 11:40am. The day of the trial 2 non starters. Ballotted togther, not fair on the other ridesr? How do I as a secretary know if Clubs X is a national rider or just a club rider riding a national for the first time because he wants to ride around with one of his clubs national riders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tordijarres Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 That's a good point re groups of riders, could get a bit messy if large numbers requested it. As I've never done any secretarial work (but have course plotted many times in the past) I don't know how many of these "Can I ride with my mates please?" letters you get. I guess that yes, they would have to be entered together in the ballot, that's OK, it's still random. Not sure about your point on being affiliated to "Club X". If the ballot is true then it doesn't matter which club they choose to put on their entry form, those Club X riders will be randomly distributed. Surely it would only matter if you were trying to somehow "place" them in the field? My point was that generally (even allowing for the fact that more of Club X's riders will want to participate in their "local national") they generally get the better (ie later numbers) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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