Alan Jeffferies

[bikespace]

Looking at the whole trial there was a nice balance to be honest. If it were any harder at all, I'd probably have a day out watching I was beginning to wonder in the middle. There was a clump of sections that came at us one after the other which were VERY difficult for most of us lardies down the mid to bottom end and the heat helped to detune us a little.

I think it was round about section 17 for about 7 sections, I attached the harness and strapped the Sherco to my back

When you look at the results though, the top 10 to 15 hardly flinched at them.

I would have loved to see them ride them.

It seems there is a certain type of section which the big boys find just that tiny bit harder, while the bottom end find impossible and just can't see a way up - bound to happen I suppose. Some of them were like ice, and it's hard to find the confidence to commit when it is that slippy.

I stil honestly don't know the answer to the question "What is a clubman?"

I ride at the low end of experts in our centre, I ride the hard route in the Manx2day and that seems to fit me just right, but the non-stop helps my old fart riding style I think. I've ridden all the Novogar's so far, the two Yorkshire ones probably being the most tiring, mainly I think because of the bigger steps.

So, question's still not answered, but a healthy discussion here which may come up with some ideas.

[the artist formerly known as ish]

What is a clubman?

If a center rider was a rider who could score points in a center event.

A British championship rider would be a rider who could score championship points at that level.

A world round level rider would score WR points.

Then wouldn't a clubman be a rider who normally rides and scores points in their local club events, but doesn't often venture beyond that level.

If you have a clubman's championship, would it not be smart to define what a clubman is.

[bdmc]

Centre Rider - will score points in a centre trial if the points go to the last man. (As in Yorkshire)

British Championship rider only the top 15 score points.

World championship rider only the top 15 score points

Therefore do you mark out the Centre trial for the last man so that he can have a chance of obtaining more than 1 point. Mark the course in the British championship for the riders who ride regulary but do not score points, or for the top 15. The world championship course, for the riders who only ride in thier countries world trial in case they may score points or for the top 15

Within the Yorkshire centre there are many experts who do not venture out of Yorkshire for nationals, but are happy to ride all the Yorkshire run nationals. I expect this is the case within all centres.

Read the rules on the Novogar Championship and it states that the 'course must be laid out to a standard suitable for clubman type riders'

There are only 3 adult grades in the ACU handbook Exp/Int/Nov.

How does a secretary of an event know what a clubman is? How does a Clerk of course mark out a section for 'clubman type riders'?

Note: Theses are my thoughts not the organisers of the AJ trial.

[jools]

I ride in the same centre as Bikespace. In that centre (and possibly all of them?) there is a basic grading system. talking to the guy who sorts out the points etc for our centre about a month ago now, he told me that if your a novice for example, if you have 2 wins in that class, you instantly get promoted to the route up.

Ok, this cant apply to the clubmans series-but i think if their was some sort of grading regulation or something, it would be easy then to know who the riders are that are the 'top riders'. All other sports have this.

Its good because their are riders commenting and also BDMC who a secretery, so getting it from both sides.

[bikespace]

Just to put it in perspective, in case the good people at Bradford take these comments in any sort of negative way.

The trial was bloody good. I remember feeling a bit bogged down in the middle of it, but I'm over about 17 stone and nearer 40 than 30. If I can get round and still walk, it can't be too gruesome

I know these questions are regarding the Novogar series as a whole, and I think in a positive way. I'm wondering myself what level the Novogar should be aimed at, as our centre tackles one in about 6 weeks time.

I've not seen all the sections at the SSDT, but got round a fair few. How do people think the Novogar series should compare to Scotland? I know that Scotland has 6 days to fatigue people and grab the marks off them, but from what I've seen recently the Novogar series is a fair bit harder than the majority of Scotland sections. It's also harder than the Manx 2 Day hard route.

Just looking to put it in a pigeon hole somewhere, and probably to aim our sections at a particular level

[telecat]

Results link.

http://www.bradfordtrials.btinternet.co.uk...ts/05aj-res.pdf

[bdmc]

in case the good people at Bradford take these comments in any sort of negative way.

I cant speak for the AJ CoC but I am not being offended in any way. I dont think the club would be from the comments recieved up to now.

I, as a secretary and a national CoC am looking for sensible guidance on how National c/ship trial's shouled be marked.

At the moment I have not read an answer that will resolve the situation. Is there one?

I belive all CoC when marking sections out for the Novogar series try and get an even balance for all entries. I dont belive they markout for the 'top guys'. (Still not sure how you become a top guy). The last thing a club or Coc wants is riders not returning the following year and/or slagging the trial off. We try and please all, but as you can see an impossible task.

What would have happened if on the day the weather had changed. Would it be 2a good trial shame about the weather". Or "That was a crap trial"

Keep the answers coming in and maybe we can get it right.

What about CoC who organise the Novogar series going to each round and seeing what has been plotted, section wise and seeing the class of rider then returning to their own club and marking accordingly.

[jaysee]

I think the problem is the word 'clubman'. A 'top clubman' in the novogar is a top expert in their own centre, not a novice. Previous winners Sager, Austemuhle, Pearson etc are proof of that.

What the clubmans championship is is a proper national trials championship without the top 10 in the country plus top few british expert runners.

With regard to starting order. Regular names appear at the back of the entry because they send their entries straight back. Simple as that! Why should the top riders be penalised by being forced to ride lower down the entry? surly thats handicapping riders, although I do agree that thorpy, sager etc should only be allowed to ride with one wheel!

The two yorkshire novogars (ccarter and aj) have been the hardest two of the year but contained nothing dangerous, just enough hard sections to get a deserved winner.

[original]

correct me if i'm wrong but didnt the top 15 in the british championship used to be numbers 30 to 45 before it went to the new format?

why not do this in the clubmans? then all the likely winners would ride the same sections!

also i send my entries in ASAP as i get them even go to work late to make sure they go to the main post office that day, a few times i have been at the front so i do think that certain riders DO get priority, ive finished top ten in alot of the rounds , but the ones i was at the front i've struggled to get any where near the points. (not including the alan jeffries, i put that down to a bad performance by me)

[robin m. s/c]

original.

You are spot on, the british championship usde to have the top 15 runners seeded from number 31 onwards, when they were 1 lap road based nationals, so the championship contenders rode the sections when they were in a similar state.

A poor draw in the ballot could spoil someone's season e.g. if they were drawn No.1 and main rival no.90.

Re the title Clubman. When the championship was first introduced it was for those riders who didn't score British Championship points. At that stage the expert championship didn't exist so the qualification was correct.

Now there are two tiers of british championship above the clubman (main one and expert) but the qualification allows those outside the top 3 in the experts to gain points in the clubman. I can't see this is correct as I would not deem Sagar, Farrer, Timperley etc etc being a clubman.

You will though not be able to define a clubman whilst all centres have different grading rules. I don't know how they do it in Germany / France but on many bikes at the euro's you see a coloured number board on the front (as high as no.900) that seems to indicate the riders have a national grading and route they should ride.

No idea how this could work in UK but it would help organisers now how hard to set out a clubmans national.

If the clubmans nationals continue as they are the organisers should be allowed to put on dual routes in order to encourage the average club room rider who fancies a good road trial. At our clubs national last year we had the lowest solo entry for years because it was a 'Clubmans' championship and lot's of people didn't enter as they expected it to be too hard.

[nigel dabster]

I think this all ties in with a need for a clubmans series which has dual routes, a bit like an Slightly easier novagar and an over 40/50 championship, for which at present there is very little. Something similar to the Reeth 3 day which has 180 riders every year and turns dozens away, it would be popular and would never run out of riders as they would just get older and drop down.

The porblem in defining a clubman is immense as some of the" Experts " in our centre have never ridden more than 50 miles from home and would really struggle on the easy course up north.

[bdmc]

Duel routes?

80% on the easy course. 20% on the c/ship course.

Would you get the 'clubman' pot hunters entering on the easy course.

Not the way I would like to mark out a championship trial.

To be able to run a national trial would be the cream of each clubs calender, a Championship trial even better. A chance to invite 'top riders' to your club. Mark sections that will take some points but still make it challanging for the rest of the entry. With only 20% of the entry riding the harder course would it be the same?

How about some of the clubs (max 5) who run a single course single lap event getting together and running a series. (Subject to ACU) The entry fee to be the same,

[stuartc]

What a GOOD idea, then all riders would know what

sort of trial to expect.

Also something to aim for, maybe registering to ride

the series to be eligible for the TOP

[jools]

That sounds a good idea

support the riders who support the series all the way through the year, which is 75% of the entry! rather than the minority who ride perhaps 2 of these per year who are far too good to be riding the trial and take the prize/money from the riders whom the series is intended for. In most cases this year, the 'minority' having entered the trial have increased the severity of the sections for everyone else. ok, we all need a few sections in a trial to sort a winner, but some of them have got silly. Theres also a huge lack of consistancy with the events too. It needs to be ran properly and not just left to the clubs (who get the stick )

The suggestion BDMC made is a very good one.

[bdmc]

'minority' having entered the trial have increased the severity of the sections for everyone else.

As said in the previos posts the majority who entered the AJ trial were Experts. Not what we thought as expert but what was put on the entry form by the rider.

Only 6 sections out of 44 took the majority of the marks. The severity of the sctions were not increased from 2004.

When you say 'not left to the clubs' who would organise it?

Who else can you blame. The ACU? I dont think so. They can only advise, which they do, in the notes that are given when you apply for a c/ship event. It has to be the club.

Another suggestion for my idea: 3 CoC marking out the sections 1 from the organising club 2 from other clubs of the 5. They would have to be paid travelling etc.