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Different Bsas


laird387
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Hi,

Another interesting image, hinting at the way Pre-65 trials have changed over the years, taken by my old friend Gordon Francis, at a Bath Classic trial that I helped to organise on 23 January 2000.

In those days the B40 was treated as an overgrown C15, so rode in the unit-construction class.

Dave Freemantle preferred to ride amongst what many looked upon as the 'real' machines - so turned up with his version of a BSA 350. I liked it - and Dave, as always, thoroughly enjoyed his ride. What's more - looks like a nice bike.

Enjoy

post-19290-0-99642900-1388834826_thumb.jpg

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Main thing that's altered is the sections we have to ride nowadays. Been looking at the photos from the 60's 70's and Classic events and it's when you look at what they are riding through you really notice the difference which is also the reason the bikes have changed so much. You would struggle to ride that beautiful BSA at most club trials nowadays due to the non existent, by todays standards, ground clearance. Same with the Scottish trial btw imho.

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Hi OTF,

The change in the sections is precisely why I really don't enjoy visiting, for example, the Pre-65 Scottish. In 1965 the second Spanish Armada arrived on our shores - but this time they were riding very attractive, very rideable, very capable - and VERY EXPENSIVE trials machines.

What is more, they were all newly created - there were no used ones - so when organisers tightened up the sections, found bigger rocks to clamber over or steeper banks out of streams, those of us with existing British bikes found we couldn't even push them round the corners, etc.

So we had the choice - create a series of trials that we could still ride - or take up a different sport, golf, mountaineering, hockey or whatever.

We didn't ban the new bikes - we started a different class of trial, called it pre-65 'cos that seemed rational at the time - and the sport flourished.

Now the cycle is repeating - sections are being set to catch out the new breed of so-called classic bikes, and as you so rightly say, a bike with 'historically accurate' ground clearance would be stranded.

There's another side to that coin - you need to find more and more difficult hazards, land clubs have used for years begins to lack the necessary severity - but land access rights over the years is often the only argument that stops local government planners in their tracks when they want to deny access to motorcycles.

That is why I say I'm not advocating a puritanical approach to those wanting to create ultra-modern specials - but a realistic approach to stop the cycle of the second Spanish Armada happening all over again - BUT THIS TIME IT COULD REALLY BE ALL OVER AS FAR AS ACCESS TO THE LAND IS CONCERNED.

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It always interests me, discussion on how sections have changed and how they are now much harder in classic trials than they were back in the respective eras of whichever bikes are being discussed

I'm too young to have ridden in the 60s and didn't get on a trials bike until '72/73, so can't comment on how hard 60s trials were from experience. However, I was watching some film of an early 50s trial the other day from Yorkshire somewhere, and the sections featured were harder than anything I've come across in any of the classic club trials I've ever ridden in. It featured really boggy ground followed by some rocks and they were nearly all crashing and having to be helped (it wasn't the Scott) There's no way you'd see something like that in a classic trial now.

I've also watched some film of an early 60s trial and a couple of sections featured were tight enough that the riders were using the clutch to negotiate a couple of turns. There was also a cambered turn up a grassy bank that took a lot of fives and looked tricky even by today's standards.

Certainly, the trials I rode in in my first few years were a lot harder than any classic trial (club level) that exists nowadays. Centre and British championship trials from the late 70s and early 80s were harder than anything we ride in now in any classic event, including the Normandales.

Are the sections in the Pre65 Scottish really that different from the sections ridden back in 1965 (genuine question as obviously I don't have first hand experience) I don't think Pipeline was used prior to '65, but the rest? Most are the same aren't they?

On the subject of Pipeline, it doesn't appear as difficult as it used to be back in the late 60's and 70s. I've watched film of Andrews, Lampkin etc all struggle up it on their 70s works bikes, only just managing threes, whereas nowadays, numerous cleans are recorded. I know tyres and suspension make a difference now, but the section itself seems to have bedded down a lot since those days. Lots more trees too...

I think sometimes people forget just how hard some trials were years ago, especially as they were all one route.

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Hi,

If it was a professional film of an event in Yorkshire from way back when it was most likely the work of C H Wood - a professional film maker with a keen interest in motorcycling - which included riding his own bikes! The other claim to fame of C Harold Wood was that he was one of the keenest of organisers of the very early Scott Trials - so he knew what he was taking about.

I suspect if it showed very hard going then it was probably one of his films of the Ilkley Grand National, a very old Yorkshire event with rules rather similar to the Scott Trial.

It involved riding a fixed route with Observed Sections that one entered whether there were other competitors in or not, which started on the lower slopes of and climbed up and over Beamsley Beacon down through very boggy lower sections round the back of the Beacon then round to the Start area. If you were out of your allotted time for the fist lap you were removed from the competition at that point. Otherwise you set off on the second absolute knackering lap.......

I competed several times, was allowed to ride the second lap a couple of times and finished just as the likely winner Arthur Lampkin was away at the nearest pub and already on to his fifth pint.......

Yes, with the old bikes trials were definitely harder way back when.

Edited by laird387
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ilkley grand national is my favorite trial, first went when i was 11 years old and 40 years later i ll be riding again come the end of March, much shorter than back in the day but frankly if you rode the same sections back then in the ch wood days i'd be amazed. yorkshires finest drop buckets of marks on modern bikes in the bogs and rocky becks .

dont know what year the grand national started but it does follow a route and format similar to what the Scott before it moved further north ( multi lap time and observation)

as for todays pre65 there is no doubt sections are tougher than when i started riding p65. 19 years i ve been riding with Yorks classic and we evolved from single route to dual route and the evidence is clear that what were 10 years ago expert sections are now often clubman class. having said that bikes are undoubtedly better prepared ( rarely a mechanical retirement) and easier to ride..

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Hi,

I'm attaching an image of Harold (C H) Wood - and I apologise for the quality - the number on the front plate is 'concocted' it was supposed to represent a 2-stroke, 2-cylinder, 2-speed motorcycle from Bradford (Hence the AK 222) but no such registered number ever existed!

Enjoy.

post-19290-0-18310800-1388848403_thumb.jpg

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Hi Guy's

I agree with Dave, starting riding trials in the late fifties, I think the sections were probably just has difficult as many are today! Not so tight around turns in many cases, but entries in and out of streams just the same has now. more stops on rocks in and out of streams ! but that was just the ground clearance.

The main thing that one forgets that most of the guy's competing on the machines then were young and full of energy most riders were under thirty in our club. NOBAC, and the older riders like Old Frank were not frowned upon for running out of puff.

Most bikes were heavy even the little two strokes. And this being the only type of machine, there was no comparison to anything any better, Yes we tweaked our bikes but mainly just cosmetically> I fitted Orange glass fiber mudguards to my Greeves, along with the first Sackville nylon throttle? buy then I was a child. and just wanted my toy to look better. I had the advantage of my own trials practice fields with most elements, in them so was able to practice to my hearts content , which I did for hours every day. this does not happen a lot now does it???

So concluding I think it is just the age thing? Older riders love to ride the British Classic Trials bikes ,to relive there youth. Or to tinker with them.

Regards Charlie. :icon_salut: www.bsaotter.com

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Hi Charlie,

Here's the picture from the front cover of ORR91 - you only have to ask! Yes, I was that photographer - and no, it wasn't as bright a blue as it looks on screen!

Enjoy

Deryk

post-19290-0-69447400-1388872253_thumb.jpg

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Hi Guy's

Thanks Deryk for that picture of Bryan.

I have now decided to rebuild the bike to the exact spec in the picture.

And return to using a lightened steel barrel and reconditioned cylinder head. And i am going to go back to using a Amal concentric carb? but one of the Amalminium ones.

The gearing is to be revised as it is just to low on the overall ratios, I will probably go up on the gearbox.

a new Cub front hub is to be spoked in But not a alloy copy!!!

I hope to get the bike rebuilt for the Sam Cooper trial in May.

Thanks again Deryk.

Regards Charlie. :icon_salut: www.bsaotter.com

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Hi Charlie,

Hope you do get the bike ready for the 'Sam Cooper' - someone that it gave me genuine pleasure to commemorate by naming the trial after persuading Dennis Bridges that, with my help, we could get the trial back out on the road again.

Are Dennis' lads, Nick for example, still involved - if so, please remember me to them.

Cheers

Deryk

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It’s a fact of life that things evolve, including sports

There must be a demand for the “modern classic” or no-one would have one!

I would also guess the biggest change to sections is tyres?

Fair point.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi,

To have a look down memory lane - if you like. This image could be the starting point for all the BSA modifying enthusiasts, it was ridden by Arthur Lampkin in the Scottish and, as seen here in 1966, went on to win the event beating all the other entrants - and they were headed by Sammy on his Bultaco - so it can't have been that bad.

If you feel that it wouldn't cope in modern 'so called' classic style sections then I wonder if it's not really the sections that are wrong - not the bikes?

Enjoy

post-19290-0-64709700-1389883803_thumb.jpg

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