Whose C15T Was This?

[laird387]

Hi,

Now a look at the more serious side of publicity photography!

The official works photograph, taken by the front steps of the BSA factory at Small Heath in 1950 showing the solo and sidecar winners of the British Experts trial, with their trophies.

In the group are that other Ulsterman, Billy Nicholson on his rigid Gold Star and the Skefco Gold cup, then the Works Manager, T P Whittington, then sidecar winner Hal Tozer with the Palmer Trophy and his passenger, Jack Wilkes, with the newly awarded Feridax Bowl. On the far right is the BSA Sales Manager George Savage.

When I organised the 'British Bike Championship' I was asked by the widow of a famous sidecar passenger, who wished to remain anonymous, to buy a suitable trophy to be awarded to the Sidecar winning passenger, which I was pleased to do.

Enjoy.

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's I Deryk.

I think the Fury, is in the National Motorcycle Museum. Seem to remember looking at it.

I bet one of the guy's working on that was the late Mick Mills.

Regards Charlie. www.bsaotter.com

[tim worman]

I was always of the understanding, that the distributor drive was not strong enough to withstand this conversion. During the 60's there was a guy named Barry Worman (spelling maybe wrong) in the South Midland Center, who trialed a B 40, this particular bike had special side covers that allowed the magneto to be placed similar to the earlier B31/goldstar.

I have some pictures of Barrie's B.S.A I will dig them out ( he was my dad ) ,I am not a bike guy but I remember being told that his B.S.A had a modified frame that rode lower for his short legs and had oil in the frame , it also had forks from another firm Sirani or Cirani 

[laird387]

No idea but the first question that comes to mind is why? I would love to know.

 

Hi otf,

 

Sorry to be so late in picking up on your query, but the energy transfer ignition system of the early C15s was possibly the main reason that many people started looking seriously at ways and means of creating an alternative - and as an electronics engineer my thoughts naturally veered towards electronic ignition.

 

Then I acquired a B40 trials outfit and realised exactly why the ignition system needed to be changed - but I opted for a total loss ignition coil system using a high capacity dry cell battery mounted behind the trials number plate which made a radical difference to the performance.

 

Then I bought Peter Gaunt's Ducati from him and found that needed the same treatment - and also found that transformed the bike, gave it steam engine pulling power at low revs., which Peter told me it lacked before I ever bought it and said; "No come backs - don't take it then moan at me, it needs the carb. sorting....."

 

But the carb. was fine when it had a fat spark..........

 

Ah, happy days.

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's.

 

Deryk on the same theme  an electronic ignition that is total loss is the Clubman Interspan system,

 

 at 2500 revs that battery (8 volt) is said to last for 6-8 hours the only problem with the system is that it costs £340.

 

But I am surprised that a lot more are not used on the Modern Classic Trick-Shock  bike, and I think they are OK for that Scottish trial too?

 

Regards Charlie.

 

 

[laird387]

Hi Charlie,

 

Mine was nowhere near as complicated as an Interspan.  The battery was a 12v rechargeable that was part of my portable battery pack for firing my high-power Metz flashgun on my camera - when I was riding the bike I didn't take photos so didn't have to buy an extra one.  The coil I used was a second-hand spare that I had bought when I was using my Triumph Metisse which I had converted to trail bike trim to use for surveying potential sections then going and negotiating with the landowners - who were always impressed with the very smart bike with the Union Flag on the British Racing Green tank that gave an excellent opening to start the conversation.

 

I used the original points, but nicely burnished as taught during my training with Marconi on setting up telephone exchange contact breakers.

 

Cheers

Deryk

[2stroke4stroke]

wouldn't bite down for grip on a slippery slope." All of which makes we wonder why so many these days have opted for the 343 route?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Possibly they are not using tyres of a 1962 variety.

 

[laird387]

 

wouldn't bite down for grip on a slippery slope." All of which makes we wonder why so many these days have opted for the 343 route?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Possibly they are not using tyres of a 1962 variety.

 

 

Hi,

 

Whatever tyres the works BSAs were using, they were the same tyres on the various sizes of engines they tried - the grip achieved is a feature of the power delivery difference between a longstroke engine and a shortstroke motor - and it is not just a theory I'm proposing, but comments that were given to me by my personal friends Jim Sandiford, Tony Davies, John Draper and Jeff Smith.

 

I still wonder just why so many haven't tried a 250.........

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's.

Deryk,

 

One of the reasons why the amount of B40 engines have been pushed into service, was the fact that the GB version was developed for the ministry of defence as you know.

 

And when these were sacked on replacement for the latest military bikes these engines became very available and had the wide-ratio gearbox too-boot.

 

I was told earlier this year by the guy's at JJ Cables that used to be Johnstons, that they used to by pallets of these these engines with five on for £500.

 

These were the ones that were fitted into the BSA "Otters" sold by Ally Clift with the frames made by Harry Foster. // and then when Sam and Howard started to make the Faber "Otters".

again these engines were used if they could be now found.

 

Saying that although the BSA B40 and C15 have the same stroke at 70 mm the C15 with the 67mm bore compared with  79mm for the  B40  as been said to find the better grip.

 

I still think that some thing in the middle is still the best option and that is why not only me but others have fitted the Triumph pistons to bring the C15 motor out to 69mm and some a bit more.

 

Only the rider using the bike with the middle engine fitted will know if they think this power is the best of both worlds.

 

You know today with the sections we mostly have, it probably does not make that much difference 

 

Merry Christmas Charlie.

 

[2stroke4stroke]

That was then, this is now. Engine characteristics that did not work then are fine now given the improvements in tyres and suspension, regardless of stroke length I would say.

[jon v8]

George Greenland uses Kawasaki Z1000 pistons to get a C15 out to 285cc. he reckons they run at their absolute best like this. Given his talent as an engineer and rider I shall follow his lead if I need to do engine work on my C15 that is yet to see action.

George is also responsible for Ariels running a shorter stroke than Selly Oak supplied - and even Sammy couldn't get them to work like George did...

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's.

 

Jon . I totally  agree.

 

If you can't get something right at George's age you never will!

 

Totally underestimated guy on all counts. PS, I did hear a rumour that the pistons were going spare and begged, but they work.

 

Merry Christmas George.

 

Regards Charlie.

[japes1275]

My Ceefer has a piston from something else that takes it out to about 280cc I think. I'd been let down by a supposedly good engine place and needed something quick so I didn't really look into it at the time.

Anyway, it goes really well and seems to have a nice power delivery. I've also got a B40 and even though it's a low compression model it still seems to have a harsher pick up when you open the throttle.

[laird387]

Hi japes,

 

That is precisely what the works riders said, they were all issued with a 350+ sized B40 works bike as well as their usual C15s, to ride in the nationals where there was an 'Over 350cc Cup' as well as the usuals in order to keep winning the competitions they had taken on their Gold Stars - but to a man they said: "The power take-up is too fierce and it breaks traction too easily..............."

[alta]

I have a C15 that's been in the family since 1973, complete with the usual  mods, which I've ridden in many trials over the years with reasonable success.  I had a B40 which initially had a C15 frame that my dad modified and latterly had a Faber type frame ( bought from SHM, the braised on sub frame type) with GB motor and a shortened B44 alloy barrel, fitted with a slightly longer version of the forks I now have on my Cub and with decent rear suspension. The two bikes were chalk and cheese from a grip finding point of view with both versions of the B40 being in my opinion far better, even though the C15 was a fair bit lighter . Maybe the benefit of modern tyres and suspension enabled the B40 motor to perform at its best? I read somewhere that the  BSA works riders enjoyed riding the B40 at the time but gained better results on the C15. If only..........................