jc2 Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 I'm confused about the Cotton trials models available in early-mid60's. Am I right that there was the Trials model, the Trials Special model (with distinctly different frame) & the Trials Starmaker model? If so, was the Starmaker model just the Trials Special with a Starmaker engine? Then in later 60s, there was the Trials 37A model??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted January 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 Hi John, The full Cotton history I have traced in the archives - so drop me a PM and I'll help you sort them out, Cheers, Deryk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparks2 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 Woody My best guess would be that the Dommett Starmaker Cotton was supplied with those MP forks. But lets not get started on pre-65 etc etc, I'm sick of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 Yeah true enough, I see no sense or purpose to any Pre65 rules, they achieve nothing that they were intended to and am well past caring. But nothing wrong with discussion, as long as it is genuine discussion with a purpose, not just pointless bitching. I've always wondered how the decision came about as to which forks etc should be allowed as being Pre65 as it is impossible to find any actual documented evidence or information as to what was available when. But if that Cotton was being ridden in a 1964 trial, it would tend to put a rather large torpedo through the rule book... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 But if that Cotton was being ridden in a 1964 trial, it would tend to put a rather large torpedo through the rule book... The rules have always made exceptions for any model which is documented to have had any particular component fitted. It does not follow that these components can then be fitted to every bike regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie prescott Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 Hi Guys. I just don't understand the term " Rules" ???? Who's rules are we talking about?? There is NO laid down overall blanket rules to any trials bike as I know what ever the year. And one club who runs an observation trial to a set of guidelines by that club, has NO dictate to any other Club or individual who wants to set up an event for sporting trials motorcycles. If the club collectively , or an individual ,lays down guidelines ,for the said event, and riders entering this event with these guidelines agree to compete to this format. There should be no argument. If a competition the following week end has different guidelines for there event the competitor has a choice whether he or she agrees to this clubs guidelines, don't you think???? Regards Charlie. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 The rules have always made exceptions for any model which is documented to have had any particular component fitted. It does not follow that these components can then be fitted to every bike regardless. One problem I think, when Pre65 rules are mentioned, is that people automatically assume it is referring to the Pre65 Scottish. I wasn't, just rules in general, which obviously differ from club to club etc and many trials now are Pre70 anyway. Out of personal interest, I've always wondered who it was that made the first declaration, or decision, that MP, Ceriani or REH forks etc shouldn't be allowed in Pre65 as they weren't available Pre65. I wonder this purely because I've never seen anything documented anywhere that dates them. But now I see a picture of a 1964 registered Cotton with, presumably MP, but could be one of the others, so just curious whether the picture was from 1964. If it was there are two possibilities. Forks were prototypes and not on sale. Forks were available for retail, in which case they are a genuine Pre65 component. Just curious, but I'm doubtful anyone will have a definitive answer. May test Colin's memory at the show.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted January 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 Hi, Another Cotton that we used to see fairly regularly around the southern pre-65 scene was ridden by Robin Frampton, seen here in relatively pristine state. Enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted January 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2014 Hi, Here are some facts for those who want accuracy - for my part I'm past caring - just sad to see how so many people accept as 'fact' what they read in the commercial press at the time - you should have tried writing for them - as I did - then seeing how too many sub-editors 'modified' the facts to suit, as they thought, their advertisers..........how about this gem from a glossy of the time, testing a Norton 500T - "I have never ridden a motorcycle on the rough before, so I approached this test with slight trepidation............." and this clown was going to give me 'facts' about a trials machine!!!!!!!!! So, digression over, here is North-Eastern star Brian Hutchinson with his works-supported Cotton riding one of the 'Warner King' sections in the 1971 Colmore trial - photographed by Alan Vines. As you can see, Villiers had become 'difficult' with their motors - so Pat Onions and the team made a trip to Italy and came back with a handy deal with Minarelli to fit their 170cc units. Ponder and enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted February 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Hi, Johnny Draper had a Cotton 'on loan' in 1970 fitted with one of the Minarelli motors - here Bill Cole spotted him in a Centre trial in Gloucestershire - being helped by what Drapes described as a friendly tree....... Enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted February 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Hi, In the A-CU Inter-centre Team Trial at Burrington. Another Cotton works rider, South Western team member John Luckett negotiates a tricky camber. The Cotton was a very tidy machine, but doubtless lost out a little on the steep slopes at Burrington. Johns team-mates were Ian Haydon, Brian Higgins, Mike Sexton and Alan Dommett with Jim Courtney as manager. John is, of course, on the Minarelli-engined Cotton - which, I believe, was announced as the Cotton Cavalier? Photographed by Alan Vines. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted February 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Hi, Max King tested various trials models, here he is testing Malcolm Davis' works Cotton, photographed by Gordon Francis. Enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted February 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Hi, Seen by Alan Vines in 1972 at Burrington in the A-CU Inter-centre Team trial, Eddie Cordle on the works 170 Cotton-Minarelli which he rode for the Eastern Centre team with Alan Garrett (also Cotton mounted), Mick Denny, John Kendall, and Alan Collier. Team manager was Derek Clampin and they lost a total of 400 marks to finish eleventh overall. Works riders for British factories were now thin on the ground, and Eddie remembers the Cotton. “It was a nice bike actually, and I rode it for about three years. With the first ones you could only really use bottom gear, then Cottons put their own gears in and that meant that first, second and third were possible – with a very big jump to top! I’ve still got a 1971 letter from Reg Buttery at Cottons, enclosing my bonus of £3 for winning a Centre trial. The letter says that ‘with Brian (Hutchinson), John (Luckett), Dennis (Saunders) and you going so well, we could be the first motor cycle company to go bankrupt because of the successes of our riders!’ After the Cotton I went on to a Montesa, and was then very much involved with the early Fantic machines.” Enjoy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted March 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2014 Hi, One of my photographs taken, I think, at the Three Musketeers trial about 1990. Sadly I don't know the identity of the rider of this Cotton trialler. Enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laird387 Posted April 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2014 Hi, Mary took this photograph at one of the first Bonanzas we held at Sallywood, and it has become separated from the entry list, etc., so it is now just a guess - but I reckon it's a Cheetah. Enjoy. Now corrected, thanks to Graham Sanderson, it's a Cotton (obviously I don't know my onions..........) Thanks, Graham. Attached Images Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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