Original Pre-65 Class

[ttspud]

Dear All,

I have an original pre-65 AJS 16C and it seems that there is no classic class it can enter on equal terms from any club that I can find. It seems that the bike would need to be heavily modified to be on equal terms or alternatively just ridden for fun with little chance of being competitive. Whilst I always enjoy riding, it would be much better if there was a class specifically for original pre-65 bikes. That is not to say that the currently modified bikes would be excluded. Simply that the huge gulf between a modern pre-65 bike and an original one would best be acknowledged and catered for.

The reason for posting this here, as a near novice in such things, is that I just read a thread on this site written a few years ago in which Woody spoke very succinctly on this issue and did define a rough outline of how an original pre-65 bike might be described. Whilst perhaps being just a quick comment at the time, the spirit is there:

"As far as defining a proper spec British Pre65 bike, by definition it should have no electronic ignition, Monobloc carb, steel rims, steel hubs, original forks with no modern internals, original yokes, no modern rear dampers, steel (or alloy?) mudguards, original footpegs, steel fuel tank, steel oil tank and weigh over 260lbs. "

The spirit of a pre-65 class would be to make the fewest possible diversions from the original spec as reasonably possible perhaps allowing for alterations based on pragmatic, not performance, grounds. Woody's description was written in a different context, not for the purpose of defining a pre-65 class, but it is similar to the starting point. The point of the class would be to focus on originality not performance. Better pre-65 riders would still be able to ride the hardest course alongside the modified bikes, as usual, but in a different class to the modifieds. The easier course would still cater for pre-65 riders not wishing to ride the harder course as it does today. All riders are then competing on equal terms in their respective classes and everyone can enjoy themselves as much as possible.

I'd like to find out if there is any support for creating a pre-65 class defined by almost all original parts perhaps excluding some running items like rims/tyres for modern tyres (18" rather than 19" and so on) and possibly shock internals if the original ones are impossible to get hold of. Also safety issues like sprung footrests. But everything else original including seat, frame, hubs, brakes, clutch, ignition, mudguards, kickstart, oil reservoir, carburetor, engine, forks, tank and so on. That could perhaps be widened to allowing for pattern parts that are pre-certified as being of original design and material. There might perhaps be opportunities for some things to be manufactured again by existing specialists in the field.

I know that this subject is often described as a can of worms but it need not be. It has been discussed at length and the issues are well understood. The problem is perhaps that nothing has been agreed and done by those with the power to introduce a solution, rather than that solution being particularly difficult to create. I have not seen a set of rules anywhere close to an original pre-65 class and so I thought that perhaps people here might shed some light on the possibilities for such a thing.

Some questions in order to get there :

Who governs these rules?
What would your list of allowable alterations be, based roughly on Woody's starting point?
What about GOV132 type replicas?
How difficult would it be to spot modified bikes and who would do it?
Which class would be the awards class?
Who could produce original specs for these bikes or where can they be found?
Is there anything to be said for certifying bikes as is the case with veterans (perhaps many years further on)?
Are there many riders with an original bike that would like an original pre-65 class in any case?
Are there many riders who would prefer to restore their bikes back to an original spec for the pre-65 class?
Do spectators like seeing the original pre-65 bikes or do they like the modified bikes just as much?
Who would help to put the details of such a class together?
How would the class be first introduced and to which events?

My knowledge though is pitifully limited. It would need others to step forward to take the responsibility of making such a class happen or point me in the direction of others that might.

I enjoy riding the AJS as it is. It can hardly get over logs because it is so low and is terrible in the mud because it is so heavy, but that is all the more challenge for us! And if the course is set up with that in mind, it is a joy. Who said the old bikes weren't fun. No-one that has ridden that bike has not come away with a very large smile on their face. It makes a big difference that the bike is well maintained, and that is all credit to another! It is a lot of effort to ride at times; at other times it is very special. There is nothing better than listening to that bike roar up a long climb. A fellow called Morris was responsible for that and although he might have been an engineer, I think he was musician too. No modern bike comes close to the feel or sound of it, for all it's weight, inadequacies and age, and that is something that is worth preserving.

As all sports, perhaps more so, pre-65 trials is mainly about enjoyment but I do also enjoy competing and would enjoy the events more if there were a fair class for original bikes. Although I could modify a bike within the existing rules to gain an advantage, I do not feel that that is in the spirit of this sport which is entitled pre-65 not pre-65 engine which seems to now be a better description. That in no way detracts from the enjoyment others gain from modifying pre-65 bikes, only that the two should be in separate classes. Personally, I do believe that it is best for the sport to preserve the original bikes, but that is dependent on how one views the sport. Ultimately, enjoyment is perhaps the most important thing to most and that would best be achieved by catering for both types of bike in two separate classes. More work perhaps, but perhaps also more competitors, more sport and more enjoyment.

I would feel sad if my bike continued to be effectively excluded, but I would accept it as has always been the case. Either way, I will not modify it. I would ride for enjoyment for as long as the courses are acceptable and before the spirit of these events eventually dwindles away entirely. As today, I would though think about whether to ride or not. If there were a proper pre-65 class, I would not think twice with a big smile on my face!

Thanks and over to you

[alan]

Hi TTSPUD

You don't say where you are, but Yorkshire Classic run a Big Bike series aimed at bikes like yours. They don't exclude "trick" bikes the only stipulation is pre unit four stroke. There is only one route, laid out on the easy side. There is nothing a rigid Ariel or similar couldn't cope with. The series has run for a few years now but the entries are very low. The £10 entry fee barely covers the insurance and admin costs. The series only survives on the generosity of the landowners and officials as they do everything for free.

The question is why are the entries so low (often less than 10 riders).

One answer could be that Yorkshire run plenty of other trials, many of the pre-unit riders find the big bike sections sections too easy so stay away.

.

[ttspud]

Hi Alan,

Thanks for your comments.

You are right, it does not seem that the Yorkshire Classic trials are running the type of class that I was suggesting. If I found the correct link, they do allow alterations to the frame, hubs, ignition, tank, seat, hubs and so on. In essence, as you say, the rules may allow almost anything dependent on what some of the terms, such as 'replica' actually mean in that instance. And that is the case for every set of pre-65 rules that I have seen so far.

I don't mind a tough course though two routes is of course ideal. You are right, one course if set too easy is unworkable and puts some riders off in both classes. Some riders on modified bikes will find a single original route too easy, and other riders on a modern pre-65 course will find a single route too hard. One route does not now cater for the difference in the two bikes and that, to me, is a symptom of the underlying problem, that it would be better for there to be two classes for the two types of bike. The entry could of course be low for a variety of reasons, but certainly a single course catering poorly for both classes certainly might be contributory.

It would be interesting to pick your brains a little more! Do you know of any other sets of pre-65 rules? Any that exclude modified frames or modified ignitions for example? Anything anywhere near close to the type of class being suggested?

Edited January 30, 2014 by ttspud

[alan]

The original intention was to get riders past and present to pull old bikes out from the back of the shed, and provide sections that didn't need trick bikes.

The complaint was that the "pre unit" trials run by Yorkshire were too hard on a rigid bike.

The series rules were set to be inclusive rather than exclusive to get the numbers up. The reality seems to be that the interest just isn't there. There seems to be just a handful of riders that give their old rigids a run out.

To be commercially viable, if you pay landowners and observers you need at least 40 riders.

Be interesting to see how many people would be interested especially with a set of rules to work to.

[ttspud]

Hi Alan,

Yes, quite right. The intention to include the original bikes is admirable and for many may also represent the spirit of the original event. I would think though that it has to be in the context of a proper set of original pre-65 rules and including two routes. I would think that including both clases in two routes, hard and easy, all riders would be happy, the sport would be protected, the original bikes preserved and the modified bikes could go on improving.

Yes, I am also interested to see how many people might be interested though I would guess that it is the type of change that would not happen overnight. To my mind, it is the kind of thing that would start with the few bikes that still are in original condition now, to be increased as the years go on by those riders who have previously been put off, by others who would prefer not to have to forever keep up with the modifications whether that be in the name of the spirit of the sport or because they are tired of the increasing cost and of course by others who would enjoy restoring a bike back to its original form.

I must admit, I have mostly ridden the bike in events with 200+ riders in them and there are still original bikes from the UK and elsewhere, as well as highly modified bikes at the other end. It seems that the gap though is ever-widening. Whilst there are no rules in place for two classes, there are two routes and so, at least in those trials, all riders can compete at the level they choose appropriate if not though on an equal footing. I do not think that there is too much that would be needed at those trials for an original pre-65 class to be introduced, just the will to do it and a set of rules to work to.

Do you think that a set of rules to describe the original pre-65 class could be created?

Edited January 30, 2014 by ttspud

[totalshell]

your already looking to substanially modify your 16c by putting an 18 inch rim and modern tyre on..

however in your context there is little opportunity to ride an original specced bike competatively and there is the nub.. competatively.. you wheel your 16c out and somebody else will pull theres out after the trial you ll set about making yours better for next week as will the other guy and what you end up with is todays p65 rules and bikes.

i can only agree with alan YC delivered a trial specifically for big bikes laid em out real easy and 10 turn up.. this for probably the biggest/ most popular p65 only club in the world..

plenty of demand from the spit and polish brigade for big old black bikes but having a garage full of the things i know what id rather be riding on a wet sunday in feb and cleaning on sunday t time..

there are trials for which your 16c is competative from the factory.. ACTC long distance road trials .. long straight forward sections road mileage and nobody rides trick p65 the couple of dozen regulars ride big 4 strokes..

[ttspud]

Hi Total,

I really don't know if a 19" tyre is better or worse than an 18" one. I would think that 19" tyres are hard to get hold of hence the widespread use of 18" ones. That is one modification that I would think most riders would consider to be a pragmatic alteration in an original pre-65 class rather than one to enhance the performance, which is what I am getting at. However, if you should know of a way to retain the 19" tyres, then would you detail that further.

however in your context there is little opportunity to ride an original specced bike competatively and there is the nub.. competatively.. you wheel your 16c out and somebody else will pull theres out after the trial you ll set about making yours better for next week as will the other guy and what you end up with is todays p65 rules and bikes.

Yes, you are right, there is little opportunity to ride an original bike competitively.

The next bit 'making yours better for next week' depends on the rules first, which don't exist and so you are left with the second thing, attitude and viewpoint. If one's approach is to win at any cost, then yes, you may come back a week later with a pre-65 engine thrown into an alloy frame, with modified everything, lighter, faster, higher, shorter, better clutch, better ignition and that is fine, but not the choice of everyone.

Others will certainly enjoy competing with bikes in original spec, and will not feel the need to win at any cost, but that does depend on having the rules in place to make that possible, which would mean a new class. Currently, as far as I know, that has not happened.

Perhaps there is room for both viewpoints and perhaps it is best for the sport to accept and support both viewpoints and both classes for the two different kinds of bike.

As mentioned already, there could be many reasons why that specific trial had a limited entry, I really don't know. Even assuming that everything else was excellent, I do not think that it is a good example of why an original class would not be attractive to riders with original bikes firstly because it did not have a class for original bikes and secondly because it only had one route.

Are you saying that you don't think that pre-65 trials should cater for original pre-65 bikes, or just that you don't think anyone would enter that class based on the experience of a Yorkshire trial based on a single easy course without the kind of original pre-65 class being suggested?

Yes, those are good ideas, I am sure that there are other kinds of events available for such bikes. Though that is not a reason to not properly cater for them within current classic trials.

Yes, sometimes I too would rather ride a small, light bike, but not always!!

[old trials fanatic]

I would have thought the biggest item that should be addressed with this "original P65 class" you are suggesting is NOT to allow any modern tyres or suspension as those two items alone have made even "original" machinery 200% more capable than it ever was in the day. I astounds me how many people seem to have no comprehension of how bloody awful the Dunlop Trials Universal really was. If you want to have a "original" class then suspension that works and tyres that grip have no place in it. Cant see that happening can you ?

[alan]

Hi TTSPUD

The YC Big bike trials was not a one off event, its series of 4 rounds every year that has run for at least two years that i know of. Bearing in mind all other YC trials get entries of at least 30 to 40 riders ( and regularly get more than 60), the entry is disappointing.

Had there been sufficient interest I am sure more rules would have been introduced.

Edited January 30, 2014 by alan

[totalshell]

19 inch 350 trials pattern tubed tyres are readily available.. though not by manufacturers you may recognise. 18 inch 400 tubed tyres are now a rare thing and should be snapped up as no high street manufacturer makes em any more.

i d whole heartedly support standard bikes but that bird has flown the nest as too few could agree on what was standard and what would be acceptable. the 18 or 19 inch wheel for example .. your argument may be pragmatic but it also instanly lowers the gearing and thus makes a bike easier to ride in a section.

i wrote an article for the yc newsletter some time ago detailing the mods to the welsh championship winning cub of about 1960.. practically nothing was the facts but no one .. no one would ride such a bike today never mind win a trial on one..

the passage of time may have made the bikes older but thier riders/ owners

have more money and time, resources abound in 2014 literally anything can be had at the end of a phone and so these riders with time and money spend both on thier bikes.. and the wheel turns.

Edited January 30, 2014 by totalshell

[ttspud]

Hi Fanatic,

Thanks for the comments.

Yes, I see your point. Whilst I don't believe that the performance of the Dunlop Trials tyres themselves is any issue, since if they were much worse all riders would be equal anyway, there is the issue of them being readily available at a fair price. I would guess that allowing 18" tyres might be a pragmatic choice for many and not outside of the spirit of an original pre-65 class.

With the suspension, it is the same reasoning, not based on performance but practicality. Though if the original parts are available for all the bikes, then great. Again, open for discussion.

The idea is to have a set of rules that allows original bikes to compete in a class on equal terms in as much of an original state as can fairly be preserved. The emphasis on enjoying original bikes on an equal footing, rather than being allowed to modify them to gain an ever-increasing advantage. Changing the frame or ignition is a very different choice to changing the tyres. The shocks though are a different matter again.

I do agree, I do not see people wanting to put 19" tyres on either, hence the reason I mentioned it. But that is the whole point of this discussion, to find out.

On the grip front, the AJS has incredible grip, it pulls very well and will climb well given the right rider, at least in the dry. In the wet it is a different story. Though that could have been my fault in running with an ancient, shrivelled and rounded off tyre in the first place!

Tyres and shocks accepted as in discussion, are there any other modifications that you can think of that need to be considered as possible practical allowable alterations to such a class? And with the 19" tyres, are they still available, since if not that would put that part of the discussion at an end!?

[ttspud]

Hi Total,

19 inch 350 trials pattern tubed tyres are readily available.. though not by manufacturers you may recognise. 18 inch 400 tubed tyres are now a rare thing and should be snapped up as no high street manufacturer makes em any more.

Great, thanks for the information!

Do you have any more information that you could give me? Where the tyres available and how much do they cost (though of course the first answer will answer the second!)? Also, can you still get the correct rims for them?

With the tubed 18" tyres, if they are not available then I assume that everyone is switching to the tubeless ones? And the tubeless ones are a nightmare to get on with an innertube inside, is that right?

[ttspud]

Hi Alan,

What are the differences between the 4 round Big Bike series and the normal one?

Does the normal series have more than one route?

Does the 4 round series clash with other events?

Does the 4 round series have differing rules to the normal one?

Is it just that the 4 round series differs by offering an easy route, and an easy route only?

[suzuki250]

I would have thought the biggest item that should be addressed with this "original P65 class" you are suggesting is NOT to allow any modern tyres or suspension as those two items alone have made even "original" machinery 200% more capable than it ever was in the day. I astounds me how many people seem to have no comprehension of how bloody awful the Dunlop Trials Universal really was. If you want to have a "original" class then suspension that works and tyres that grip have no place in it. Cant see that happening can you ?

[ttspud]

Hi Suzuki, (and Fanatic)

Got it!! Two votes for no alteration to tyres or suspension. But only if that is practical and possible, which it is looking like it might be!

And, you both might like to say whether you would be riding in such a class, or perhaps if not then the modified class, that would help to gauge your views!

And I should add, would you want to ride the bikes with the 19" tyres or the 18" tyres given that both might be acceptable to those wishing to ride in an original pre-65 class?

Edited January 30, 2014 by ttspud