Original Pre-65 Class

[ttspud]

Hi Total,

I am sorry, I was so focussed on tyres and trying to catch up, that I accidentally overlooked the rest of your post.

i d whole heartedly support standard bikes but that bird has flown the nest as too few could agree on what was standard and what would be acceptable. the 18 or 19 inch wheel for example .. your argument may be pragmatic but it also instanly lowers the gearing and thus makes a bike easier to ride in a section.

I am so glad that you support standard bikes and perhaps the bird hasn't flown quite yet. I know that this discussion has been on-going for a long time without being resolved and that is sad for the riders and the sport alike.

With the tyre size issue, as long as both are practical options, I am quite willing to accept either way. Which one would you choose given the perspective of wishing to ride in such a class focussing on originality not performance but respecting that some alterations may be pragmatic?

i wrote an article for the yc newsletter some time ago detailing the mods to the welsh championship winning cub of about 1960.. practically nothing was the facts but no one .. no one would ride such a bike today never mind win a trial on one..

Yes, you are right, it is unfair to expect someone on an original bike to compete against the highly modified ones, even if they should want to. I still enjoy my bike even though it is relatively standard and on a dry day it is still possible to roughly compete given a course that I can manage. Only very very special riders are able to win, though it has happened, on a hard course on a bike like mine against the highly modified ones. And no, I am not one of those!

have more money and time, resources abound in 2014 literally anything can be had at the end of a phone and so these riders with time and money spend both on thier bikes.. and the wheel turns.

Yes, quite right. And for those riders, that is great. But it should not come at the detriment of those wishing to ride and enjoy original bikes. Surely it is possible and better to cater for both.

Do you think that in principle it would be best to have two separate classes to cater for both classes?

Do you know of any riders that might like to ride in such an original class?

Edited January 30, 2014 by ttspud

[big_e]

Why not just ride the thing and enjoy it? The VMCC organise some excellent trials and all sorts turn up. There are only one or two who are bothered who wins and they tend to be on craftily modified bikes anyway. Why burden already overworked organisers with yet more classes and yet more rules? Get the bike out and get it muddy, that's what it's for!

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guys,
Ensign 400x19 trials tyres are available along with tubes etc!!!
Perhaps this should be a stipulation to any class ? That these tyres should be used??

Look you know where I stand on this subject!!
And have done my best , and spent a considerable ,amount of time and money.
Trying to revive a Class of trial for this type of Four Stroke Trials bike.
? And there is no need for it to be extreamly l competitive .

But every time I have asked for a show of hands for a return of this event, I get Nothing.

I know we are only a few on this web site , so can only expect a few to confirm.

But I spent four months phoning competitors personally, trying to get an entry for the event.then having to compromise at the last minute ,to get an entry big enough ,to put on a show.

So what is the point in trying to even think about setting up even one trial ,let alone a series, when you get this reaction??

What makes it much more annoying is the fact that we know riders and machines are out there for what could be a brilliant event, with the side shows ETC . If every one that was at the TALMAG this last week end for instance entered . Then you would have a unbelievable event in the summer months.

But has I say No response !! Ah well.


Regards Charlie "Proper Bikes". And the Chinese engined Super Cub Trials "Mini Otter".

Edited April 3, 2015 by charlie prescott

[ttspud]

Hi Big_e

Why not just ride the thing and enjoy it?

I do and have always done so! Though I would enjoy a proper original pre-65 class with the opportunity to compete fairly even more. I am sure that there must be others that feel that way and probably increasingly since the gap between the two types of bike is ever widening. If it is possible to do, it would not just preserve the bikes, but the sport too and that must be important.

Why burden already overworked organisers with yet more classes and yet more rules?

Yes, and that is partly why seeing if thrashing out the basics here and maybe even some details of the rules first, and seeing if whichever regulatory body would take some responsibility, might at least remove the burden and responsibility from local clubs for coming up with their own sets of rules. of course it might take some work, but perhaps that is something that we, as riders or interested parties, could do.

You are right, there will perhaps be the extra overhead of extra competence needed in order to conduct the scrutineering, though at the events I have been too it is very likely that knowledgeable scrutineers are already at hand. Certainly much more knowledgeable than I am, and I am relatively sure that I could be shown how to pick out the modified bikes that might try to enter the originals class. Other than that, the routes will be no different, hard and easy and so there is no extra work in setting up or dismantling the course itself. There would just be new class or classes on entry but even that is not too difficult to deal with.

On the upside, it may bring in more riders. It may protect the sport for everyone. And in sorting out the rules, it may remove the niggle of complaints about bikes going a little bit too far. Original bikes will not have to deal with modified bikes. And modified bikes can continue to modify as much as they like. That should keep everyone happy.

[ttspud]

Hi Charlie,

I am so glad that you posted a message.

You sound as though you absolutely support the idea of an original pre-65 class and know far more about it than I do!!

Do I have this right that there are 350x19 tyres and 400x19 tyres, which would have been used on the original pre-65 bikes? And can you get rims for either?

But I spent four months phoning competitors personally

Was that recently? Is there any chance of perhaps approaching this subject with them again? I might be able to add a few to the list.

Do you know who governs or has the power to introduce rules for the sport as a whole, on whatever basis that might be?

What makes it much more annoying is the fact that we know riders and machines are out there for what could be a brilliant event, with the side shows ETC . If every one that was at the TALMAG this last week end for instance entered . Then you would have a unbelievable event in the summer months.

Yes, I know exactly what you mean with regard to the Talmag. There are a lot of people there who agree with your point of view and talk about the need to deal with the two types of bike such as with the introduction of an original pre-65 class. Perhaps it might be possible to draw up a starting point for rules for this new class and ask them to vote/comment on it?

The organizers of the Talmag are under an awful lot of pressure already. I have no knowledge of the possibility of setting up a separate event. I was more thinking of introducing the class into an existing event though after such rules were solid, had enough people interested and finding events which that class would happily be introduced to. It may be that the Talmag organizers might like the idea but would only do it on a limited basis so as not to risk affecting the current atmosphere too much too quickly. Perhaps initially, the class could simply be introduced for the easier route to see how it would function. As things progress, perhaps it could be introduced also into the harder route as well. That is obviously thinking a long way ahead, but perhaps something like that might be possible.

But every time I have asked for a show of hands for a return of this event, I get Nothing.

Well, you can add myself as one supporter of such a thing and there are others.

So what is the point in trying to even think about setting up even one trial ,let alone a series, when you get this reaction??

Yes, quite. Is it the case that it does need to be officially sanctioned by whoever is responsible for governing such rules to be accepted? Is there such an organization? That would take the burden away from the clubs. Or is it simply that there are not the riders out there who want to ride original bikes or perhaps because there has never been an official set of rules for an original pre-65 class?

"Proper Bikes"

Yes, again, many will think that is quite right. The normal modern trials might be the best place for ever-increasing modifications rather than pre-65 which was, I presume, based on not having or not wanting to have the latest and greatest bikes coming out of Japan or Spain or wherever. Though none of that really matters too much now, the sport is where it is. So it is perhaps best to just support and cater for both viewpoints rather than disadvantaging either.

I am glad that you posted that message, it is the most hopeful one yet even if so far that has not got us very far!

[trialsrfun]

If clubs lay on classic trials with sections or one of the routes of sections to suit the more original bikes a separate class is not required for those bikes. Then the modified or special bikes will have their advantage reduced and more people will enjoy riding original bikes.

[ttspud]

Hi TrialsRFun,

If clubs lay on classic trials with sections or one of the routes of sections to suit the more original bikes a separate class is not required for those bikes

Thanks for your comment. I see your point, though I think it does not tackle the issue.

Yes, it is true that a hard and easy route can cater for all types of bikes and riders, though that is a different issue. The issue is not the routes themselves, some of the best riders will ride the hardest courses and will want much harder courses still, even on the original bikes.

The issue is allowing original bikes to compete on an equal footing to bikes in the same class, regardless of the route chosen, rather than being effectively excluded from the competition by having to compete against vastly modified and so vastly easier bikes. It might be how the sport is handled currently, but it would be much more enjoyable to separate the two types of bike into two classes in order to solve the issue. To my mind, ignoring the fact that the highly modified bikes are far easier to ride does not help encourage riders to participate because it does not allow them to compete on an equal basis. That would be true of any sport.

You are perhaps more or less describing the situation that exists now where events do cater for all by having an easy and hard course. Though that does not address the issue being discussed which really is the problem of original bikes being placed against ever-increasingly modified bikes in the same class. Perhaps the most workable solution would be the creation of an original pre-65 class and the existing modified class.

The idea here is to try and discover what the rules for an original pre-65 class should be.

If you were to think of rules for an original pre-65 class, where would you begin?

[trialsrfun]

It really is a difficult question to answer and an impossible task to please everyone.

As an example when we have organised trials we have had a rigid frame class but have had riders on 350/500 4 strokes complain when people enter rigid 2 stroke machines (James 197 & old 1950's BSA Bantam) in this class. The owners of the 2 stroke rigid bikes expect to be in the rigid class and not the up to 250cc class competing with sprung bikes.

Also in the unit/pre-unit class more issues arise with riders of Triumph twins, some people have also claimed that Royal Enfield Bullet's should be classed as unit construction due to them having a bolt on gearbox.

Unfortunately when riders fill in their entry form they do not always put down all the machine details or even which class they are in. The above are just some examples of the problems you face when organising a trial. You cannot have classes for absolutely every type of bike or there would mostly be only one or two in each class.

I suppose back in the day this situation would not have existed as all the different types of bike from different periods were not there at the same time and capacity classes divided the entry.

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's .
Hi TT Spud.
Look just type in ClassicTrials Show, into the search box at the top of the page.

OK, You can now see how difficult it is to try and organise an event, and to make it acceptable, for everyone.

We know the format we had for this event would work, and it did. not just a Trial but a weekend of Fun.

The ONE problem is that,for some unknown reason riders do not want to tip there toe into the Fun, until they have seen one or two years, of an overflowing entry for any event. so just stop away.

How do you cure this??? so that it is worth while organising an event, for the proscribed Classic Trials Four Stroke Machines.

It is not easy organising anything, but when you are banging your head against a wall Give up before it starts to hurt, and your pocket runs dry.

You get me a garenteed entry of 150 bikes and I would do it again. but not with out this, and has I say we know there is that number out there ,and would ride if they plucked up the courage to send an entry,

Regards Charlie. www.bsaotter.com. and "Proper Bikes" And Chinese Engined Super Cub Trials "Mini Otter". with Japanese front and rear hubs. And frame made in "Britain".

Edited April 3, 2015 by charlie prescott

[trialsrfun]

Thankfully when you organise a trial you at least know you can rely 100% on those dedicated bunch of friendly people who always observe.....yes all three of them, this means that on the day you only need find another eight or ten!

[ttspud]

Hi TrialsRFun,

It really is a difficult question to answer and an impossible task to please everyone.

As an example when we have organised trials we have had a rigid frame class but have had riders on 350/500 4 strokes complain when people enter rigid 2 stroke machines (James 197 & old 1950's BSA Bantam) in this class. The owners of the 2 stroke rigid bikes expect to be in the rigid class and not the up to 250cc class competing with sprung bikes.

Yes, I see your point. I can only express what I have found at very highly supported 4-stroke pre-65 trials in which I have ridden. And it is really that type of event that I was talking about. In those events, only 4 stroke bikes are allowed to enter which removes the issue of where to place the 2 strokes and there is no problem with numbers entering. In fact, it is possible that with an original pre-65 class that numbers may even improve.

Also in the unit/pre-unit class more issues arise with riders of Triumph twins, some people have also claimed that Royal Enfield Bullet's should be classed as unit construction due to them having a bolt on gearbox.

That is beyond my knowledge and so I leave that to more informed minds than mine. However, that issue does not seem to have an effect on the classes, which is the issue at hand, just whether a bike is eligible to ride in a pre-unit event or not.

Unfortunately when riders fill in their entry form they do not always put down all the machine details or even which class they are in.

Again, I suspect that at highly supported events that these riders will either be contacted or simply have their entries returned for correction.

You cannot have classes for absolutely every type of bike or there would mostly be only one or two in each class.

Well, no, of course, and that is not being suggested.

I believe that in the most recent events that there have been between 60 and 100 riders in my class across the two types of bike, original and modified. If there were to be an original class, then perhaps 30 of those riders would fall into the class from the start with more to follow as the idea settles. A similar effect would be had in other classes where the same issue exists. I do not know of any classes at those events with only 3 or 4 riders in them, so whilst it will of course reduce numbers in certain classes, it would not make it in any way so few so as to be ridiculous.

There may also be benefits of having an original class in terms of attracting riders by allowing them to increase their enjoyment by competing on level terms. That may bring more riders in.

[ttspud]

Hi Charlie,

Look just type in ClassicTrials Show

Yes, it looks like you had a very successful event on your hands.

The idea here is to address current events more than creating any new events. The issue is with existing trials and how that can be addressed within those events rather than solving the issue by creating new events, which, as you say, are very difficult to make succeed.

Do you have any objections to the introduction of an original pre-65 class?

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's

Hi TT,

Look I feel that any club unless they are four-stroke only are not going to want the hassle of another class attached to there trial.

It has just been said one of the major problems seems to be getting enough Observers, now a days .

Unless it is a specific trial for this type of machine, I can't see it going anywhere unfortunately .

Realisticly , there is just to much chaff in the mix of four-stroke trials bikes nowadays, for anyone to segregate the real thing. so this in it's self is the major problem.

Regards Charlie .

[trialsrfun]

All of the above is very relevant to your question and illustrates the difficulties already faced by trials organisers. In 4 stroke only events you would get riders on all sorts of Triumph twin as well as Cubs, C15, B40, Royal Enfield Bullet, Crusader & the AMC singles both AJS & Matchless, if you are lucky a Norton 500T or two as well.

Are you already involved or have you considered assisting with laying on a trial event to try out your ideas, this is the only way to see first hand the many facets of running a trial.

[ttspud]

Hi Charlie,

four-stroke only

Yes, agreed. it is likely that this is applicable to 4-stroke clubs only, at least in the beginning.

getting enough Observers

Yes, that is a problem but possibly unrelated to this. Perhaps improving the rules might help engage new riders and improve that situation also. But it would need the creation of new rules as well as finding out who the appropriate regulatory body to make them official is.

Is there such an official regulatory body for pre-65 trials? Or is it left to each club to decide individually?

Unless it is a specific trial for this type of machine, I can't see it going anywhere unfortunately .

Well, it seems that it is harder to create a totally new event than to support an existing one, made harder still if it is for a new class. It is possible that you are right, but I do not know who would wish to tackle such a thing and that would would not solve the original issue in the existing trials any case.

Realisticly , there is just to much chaff in the mix of four-stroke trials bikes nowadays, for anyone to segregate the real thing

I don't think that that is true because all of the 'chaff' can still compete in its own class under existing rules. The original bikes can then compete happily, be preserved for new riders and future riders. It is surely best to cater for both types of bike. The overhead at existing events, given a set of rules, may not be much at all. And if that brings in new riders over the following years, then that is a good thing.

I have never been of the mind that things cannot be done. However, if something has been given a good chance and has not been successful, fair enough. I do not believe that an original class has ever been attempted before.

If you know of an event that has run an original pre-65 class, can you direct me to it? It might be interesting to see how it was approached and how successful it was.

Edited January 31, 2014 by ttspud