Original Pre-65 Class

[suzuki250]

If you have a look though old threads, this subject has been done a million times, It’s one that will never be answered

Most people enjoy the class they ride, so can’t see the reason to change

Best thing to do is just ride ya bike and have some fun

[woody]

Spud, you're missing the main point. There are trials that suit these bikes, country wide. The fact that they are a decreasing sight is because fewer people want to ride them, or feel safe to do so, no matter how easy the section. One cough stall and 350lbs of old iron is going to fall onto the rider who no longer has the strength to hold it up or speed and reflexes to get off it quick enough - it has little to do with the available classes, as people who just want to ride their bikes do so in a suitable event. See the Talmag. There are rigids in the Miller and PJ1 series - in the latter they have their own class. No-one modifies tele-rigids (the big 4-stroke variety) so I'm guessing they are pretty well period. Have a guess how many there are.

I can't offer anything other than a logistical viewpoint on the problems of running classes for these bikes - as mentioned in my previous comment. I've no interest in riding one except for maybe a one-off bit of fun as I'm game to ride virtually anything on that basis. On a regular basis, no chance. My mate has an original '63 AJS and neither of us wants to ride it week in week out - him not at all after his one and only outing a few years ago.

Locally, we have the BMCA who have been running Pre65 events for 30 years. The same riders are still turning out, some have fallen by the wayside, some no longer with us. A few new faces but not many. There were a good few on bigger bikes up until a few years ago. 30 years on, they can no longer handle them except for the odd one-off ride as most are in their late 60s minimum. Nothing to do with the sections, just the riders are 30 years older and they want to enjoy themselves without broken bones. Their focus is now lightweight Bantams, James, Cubs, C15 etc. Enjoyment on a more manageable scale. They aren't yet at the point where they want a section that is virtually a green lane so that they can ride the big 'un.

Personally I don't think the support is there. Riders who would have enjpyed (!?) these bikes back in their day are now in the main too old. The number of 'new' riders that would be attracted to them is probably miniscule.

[metisse]

My uncle has the same bike as you, bought as a sixteen year old, delievered on the train from Comerfords, still unmolested he is seventy on Monday. He uses his to nip out

for the Sunday papers, as thats about as much use it is now. Years ago you may have been able to ride it in the Talmag, from what I see and read even this event would border on being too hard. Thats not to say with a little fettle as woody says you may have a days sport on it somewhere. My advice is to keep it to polish and ride like above ,but buy something else which has been breathed on a little you will find the trials to ride and have possibly more fun.

Just a note... He has just sold an indentical model Matchless, bought around the same time for nine quid.. sold for a lot lot more .. who says theres no money in trials bikes...

[stan wellback]

this topic really progressed quickly,4 pages in a little over a day. i agree with most respondents, you cant turn the clock back on the pre 65 scene,but

there is plenty of events to ride an original bike. the yellow or wobbler route will always give you a ride, but wont stretch your ability.

i ride my ajs around the south east and south midland centres, even doing the swcta two days. my bike pretty original, not one the trick ones,weighs

in at about 290lb.i do choose carefully which events and routes but there is normally options for less experienced riders.

a 1960 ajs would not be on jampots. 19inch tyres only have 3/8inch tread depth,compared to 1/2inch on 18inch tyres. diameter,therefore circumference is almost identical.

so ttspud,will we see you at the next owls club trial?

[ttspud]

Hi Woody,

Spud, you're missing the main point. There are trials that suit these bikes, country wide

No, I really am not missing the point at all. And no, there a no trials that put these bikes on an equal footing because those rules do not exist. You have not come up with any because there are none.

Personally I don't think the support is there.

I can be no plainer. With regard to originals, it is perhaps not that the riders do not want to ride; it is perhaps more that the sport is not supporting those bikes fairly. Or do you really think that it is reasonable to ignore the difference in the performance of an original bike to a modified bike entirely? Of course not, and if the sport cannot deal with the issue then it has let the riders down. There has never been an original pre-65 class in any trial that you can come up with, past or present, and that should tell you all you need to know. When did the sport make sure it was catering for original pre-65 bikes and their riders? Why is it a surprise that there are fewer riders on original bikes today when the situation has been ignored for at least a decade? It is not riders that were leaving the sport, it is, if anything that the sport has failed to cater for those riders. Just saying now that look there are so few young riders but it is not our fault, is still missing the point. You don't seem able to see that.

Winning at all costs is absolutely fine for those that think that way. Introducing a class for originals simply caters for other riders who do not and do wish to preserve the bikes. Again, you may disagree, but without pre-65 bikes, what sport do you really have? Why not just enter the modern trials where the modifications are amazing? But, again, it is fine to keep the modifieds going but not at the cost of all of the original bikes and possibly the sport too.

The same riders are still turning out, some have fallen by the wayside, some no longer with us. A few new faces but not many. There were a good few on bigger bikes up until a few years ago. 30 years on, they can no longer handle them except for the odd one-off ride as most are in their late 60s minimum. Nothing to do with the sections, just the riders are 30 years older and they want to enjoy themselves without broken bones. Their focus is now lightweight Bantams, James, Cubs, C15 etc. Enjoyment on a more manageable scale. They aren't yet at the point where they want a section that is virtually a green lane so that they can ride the big 'un.

If that is true, don't you want to see the sport support my viewpoint and include riders such as myself rather than losing them? I do find the idea that 'noting can be done' or 'nothing needs to be done' incredible when I read such things. It is like all walking off a cliff because everyone forgot to turn around.

I've no interest in riding one 'originals' except for maybe a one-off bit of fun

No, and I am sure many original riders feel the same way. Who would want to ride in a trial that effectively excludes the bike you ride? Young guys willing to take this on, and they are not catered for? Wow. That is a terrible strategy for a sport in professed decline. Perhaps it would be better to try to gain a wider perspective and see what can be done.

If the sport has sat back for 30 years, made no attempt to tackle the issue of losing original bikes in the face of ignoring the vast advantage that modifieds now have and is now in decline, perhaps it might be time not to ignore it?

Edited February 1, 2014 by ttspud

[ttspud]

Hi Stan,

I do hope so. I have been so busy, I just haven't had a chance to do so many things, Owls being one of them. I think I managed one trial only last year or perhaps 1 1/2! It is a complete aside but I do have a very very important job to finish (I almost wish it wasn't so) outside trials and time really is weighing on it. I do feel a little guilty even taking the time to do this over these two days, I probably should not have. But I do feel that the sport is making a mistake here in ignoring views such as mine, as the sport has done for so long, but things are perhaps easier in hindsight.

And yes, thank you, I shall be back to Owls as soon as I can get time out to play. i should make more time I suppose! I also meant to go see james a few months back and have a practice, but of all things my car's head gasket failed, and so back to square one!!

a 1960 ajs would not be on jampots.

Ah, ok!! That answers that! Then, to Charlie, yes, my vote would be of course!!

My AJS is beautiful. It was a works bike ridden my Mick Waller, I think relatively locally in Kent (Sidcup??), not sure. And it truthfully does sound incredible. Anyway, to me, there is more to the bike than a modified frame, clutch, hubs, tank, seat etc etc, it is a little piece of history that I am very happy to ride and let others enjoy, but am not happy to destroy by taking away its spirit through modification. My gain by winning by any means by modifying such a bike is by no means makes up for losing it to all future riders for ever more. It is just such a tragedy that the bike is effectively being pushed aside when it is genuinely a joy to ride. I have no issue with others wanting to ride modified bikes, and do not see why originals cannot also be catered for.

But there we are.

[ttspud]

Hi Metise,

My uncle has the same bike as you, bought as a sixteen year old, delievered on the train from Comerfords, still unmolested he is seventy on Monday. He uses his to nip out

for the Sunday papers, as thats about as much use it is now

Yes, thanks, that is a very appropriate anecdotal tale. Exactly the symptom that is being talked about, losing riders that have good machinary that is not being catered for.

I bet that you would enjoy riding it if you tried and I promise you that such a bike as mine has won the Talmag Trophy proper beating people like Len Hutty who ride machines that truthfully have a huge advantage over it, more than once and recently. But, as I say, that is really with very talented riders who, sadly, do not get recognised as such because it is only those that ride or closely follow the sport who realise quite how much of a disadvantage such riders are being forced to accept. Though, as I, if you do not ride often or perhaps do not fancy that level of risk, then there is the easy route, which really is easy unless one is a lot older than I.

No, the Talmag is quite easy, even for me. On wet days though, as it was this year, it is harder.

He has just sold an indentical model Matchless, bought around the same time for nine quid.. sold for a lot lot more .. who says theres no money in trials bikes...

Well, original bikes are very sought after because they are becoming so rare. Modified bikes are fine, but what are they? Some modified bikes that I have seen do not even have a proper make, they just don't have any integrity at all. Oh dear. Perhaps I should badge up my gasser with a fine Ariel stamp instead!!

My advice is to keep it to polish and ride like above ,but buy something else which has been breathed on a little you will find the trials to ride and have possibly more fun.

No, I have other bikes. But the AJS should be ridden otherwise it will just get left and end up rotting away. These older bikes are far better in the events being ridden than not. And the spectators do like seeing them even if some in the sport do not.

Thanks for your post, you anecdotes exactly describe the issue in the sport. You are of the age that could ride but you think that the Talmag is too hard. Your uncle gave up years ago whilst others of his age continue onwards, maybe he was put off by the modified bikes a long time ago, who knows. But you should be riding it, only I can't tell you that there is a course for the bike to ride in!! Bit of an issue really. Unless you are happy to ride in a competitive event without competing, not too much fun. Probably not then!! And that is the problem with ignoring this issue in a nutshell!!

Edited January 31, 2014 by ttspud

[old trials fanatic]

All I can add to this is I am old enough to remember how bloody awful those old bikes were. You would struggle to even get round half of the course on the easy route at our trials. You asked earlier would I be interested in riding one ? No I would sooner go fishing. Sorry but I would. The reason for me stating about the use of a Dunlop Trials Loonyversal is that they didn't grip so sections were mostly flat, relative to today, and as the bike had no ground clearance anyway and no suspension rock steps and logs were a no no. Just look at the Scottish the sections of old are mostly now just trails linking todays sections. Why ? because modern tyres and suspension have rendered them too easy even on an Original bike whatever that is. Nobody has ever laid down any rules because nobody can get together and find people who would adhere to them. If you think it' such a good idea then good luck to you start a club with your rules but every time I suggest that nobody does. Personally I'm not anti old original bikes I just don't see the point. Then again I don't see the point of going to Telford etc to look at polished examples of competition machinery that never gets ridden. Different strokes for different folks.

[trialsrfun]

Try www.thetaverners.com I think their trials may be what you are looking for.

I am not at all dismissive of your ideas but it would be difficult to define eligibility, for instance would folding footrests, plastic mudguards & a larger rear sprocket be acceptable? Most original bikes from that period had road gearing, my 1961 Greeves TDS would have had 15/56 fitted which seems really high when most people now run 13-60/62 sprockets.

Why not find a club in your area join in and see if it is possible to run trials with a class/route for older bigger bikes and take it from there, once the numbers build up then consider which way to go with this. Organising trials is never easy but it is also rewarding. Good luck with your sport.

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's.

So summing up then.

We find that we have been well and truly let down by the sport we profess to love and also, by governing bodies ,that have no balls to do anything about the situation.

Individuals that try to work the situation out themselves ,also get no help from anyone in the sport unless this is derogatory .

So we have no where to run . we go on as it has been in the past decade, and let history slip gently into the past.

Maybe one day we can hobble around a Motorcycle museum with relics of the past displayed, and relate our tales , to the nurse that is helping us to stay on our feet.

Or maybe TTSpud could front a new movement, with vast financial baking ,to bring what really should be done in my mind?? And that is bring a National Tour of Classic British Trials Bikes around the country to vast outdoor arenas filled with interested folk that really want to see a live show of the British past of the Classic British Four Stroke Trials bike.

Just has I dreamed of!!!!!

Not going to happen though is it??????

Regards Charlie. :icon_salut: :icon_salut: :icon_salut:

[ttspud]

Hi Fanatic,

You would struggle to even get round half of the course on the easy route at our trials.

Yet these bikes, in the right hands, have beaten the top classic bike riders riding the lastest modified bike in events such as the Talmag riding the hardest route. Yes, with modern tyres and in the case of that bike non-original rear shocks. But all else standard. That does refute the point being made albeit allowing for modern tyres/shocks but all else original.

These bikes are still capable of being ridden in existing events but it would be far better to have them ride on an equal basis in an originals class because most riders, probably as others here, will not accept such a large disadvantage.

You asked earlier would I be interested in riding one ? No I would sooner go fishing. Sorry but I would.

And that is great. Why not? But that should not mean that others with those bikes should be effectively disadvantaged and walk away when they do like riding these heavy, original bikes.

The reason for me stating about the use of a Dunlop Trials Loonyversal is that they didn't grip so sections were mostly flat, relative to today

Yes, that is why it is suggested to allow modern tyres in an originals class.

and as the bike had no ground clearance anyway and no suspension rock steps and logs were a no no.

Well yes, that is why they are so much of a disadvantage to modified bikes with high ground clearance, short frames, easy clutches, low weight and so on. Though some riders still win on them regardless, which is some feat considering many would not even attempt it let alone pull it off. I am sure that the same riders could win every year against the top modified riders but they choose to protect the bikes and ride at a large disadvantage. It would be better to support them.

Just look at the Scottish the sections of old are mostly now just trails linking todays sections. Why ?

Yes, quite right. It must be because the bikes have changed so much and not just their tyres and shocks either.

Nobody has ever laid down any rules because nobody can get together and find people who would adhere to them

No, people have never laid down any rules, at least none that anyone can find for a proper original pre-65 class, because there is no will to do so, not because there are no riders. I think the evidence over the last few decades testifies to that. It is perhaps not that there are not the original bikes around, as Metise's uncle's bikes, just that there are no fair classes left for them. As so many things, the rules could be written quite easily, that is not really the problem. Instead, this topic will likely once again drift off into history with more effort spent in talking about it than actually doing anything constructive. It reminds me of the typical British approach of a group of blokes standing around a hole whilst one chap makes an effort to dig!!

The sport has had every day since 1965 to draw up some rules, how many days is that? I don't know, but enough. It is perhaps not that the rules are not relatively easy to draw up; it is that there seems to be no will to see it done. I imagine that perhaps as the years have rolled by that the riders of the modified classes have risen to the top due to the advantage those bikes provide and other voices have been increasingly lost. Maybe not willing to give up the advantage that the modified bikes provides, the situation has become less and less important until arriving at the sport today where there are no original pre65 in the Scottish. There is no single central point to have a set of rules. That is not the best environment in which to attract new riders who might very well drag out a good, but original, AJS out of the shed and have a go. The sport simply does not cater for that any more as it does not cater for existing riders on original bikes either.

And there are, though they are perhaps a rarer breed today, those who are willing to adhere to an original pre-65 class still and there are still the bikes around to make that happen. Perhaps the sport would be better with both modifieds and pre-65 bikes in it? But that requires voices to speak up and not be allowed to be drowned out by those who only seem to want to look the other way.

Of course, the whole point is not to get bogged down in the above, not to look back, but to focus on introducing a solution if there are enough who still want to.

If you think it' such a good idea then good luck to you start a club with your rules but every time I suggest that nobody does.

That's maybe a very difficult ask given the circumstances. Perhaps better to try within existing events.

Personally I'm not anti old original bikes I just don't see the point.

I think that there is every point in supporting original pre-65 trials bikes in pre-65 trials for many reasons.

Then again I don't see the point of going to Telford etc to look at polished examples of competition machinery that never gets ridden.

Well, yes, that is a bit of an awkward position to be in. Not seeing the point in riding the bikes and not seeing the point in not riding the bikes.

Anyway, thanks for the post, it was most revealing.

Edited February 1, 2014 by ttspud

[ttspud]

Hi Trials,

for instance would folding footrests, plastic mudguards & a larger rear sprocket be acceptable?

Well, what do you think? To me, yes, folding footrests must be obligatory on safety grounds. I would have though no to plastic mudguards. And about the rear sprocket, I don't know. I would presume that that kind of thing would have certainly had a few options pre-65 so probably yes, but again, what is your view?

Why not find a club in your area join in and see if it is possible to run trials with a class/route for older bigger bikes and take it from there, once the numbers build up then consider which way to go with this. Organising trials is never easy but it is also rewarding. Good luck with your sport.

Yes, thank you.

Edited February 1, 2014 by ttspud

[ttspud]

Hi Charlie,

No, just a few rules on a piece of paper is what I thought, but please, go ahead and dream away anyway!!

Regards

Edited February 1, 2014 by ttspud

[suzuki250]

I enjoy doing a bit of observing, so I reckon everyone should have to observe 3 trials a year to be allowed to compete in pre65 this would do more for the sport than moaning about the bikes?

Edited February 1, 2014 by suzuki250

[ttspud]

Hi Suzuki,

moaning about the bikes?

That does simplify things a little too much but it also does put it rather well.

No-one has yet agreed with me that a problem exists. I see a huge problem but no-one else seems to. There is nowhere to go from there!!

It would seem a little pointless discussing a solution to a problem that no-one seems to believe exists.

I think that probably closes the topic for all intents and purposes.

Mad dogs and Englishmen. You have to love them.

Good riding and Good Luck,

TTSpud

Edited February 1, 2014 by ttspud