hensley Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Just curious back a few years ago it was mandated all bikes were going to have to be 4 stroke then the manufacturers got around it and 2 strokes survived but Honda has remained 4 stroke on the world level is that the only 4 stroke to competing now? I also noticed Honda advertises their new production model has a motor revamped to ride like a 2 stroke instead of offering a new 2 stroke engine. So i am wondering is the ruling 2 stroke is ok only temporary? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasgas249uk Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 There was a bit of a flap about it a few years back , buts all forgotten about now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0007 Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 As long as emission controls don't ban 2 strokes they have no reason to spend millions developing a 4 stroke engine that in the end will not neccesarily give a manufacturer any advantage Japan is different, at some point an important man said "No mo deveropement of 2 cyco engine" (Wrote that phonetically) and they don't look back, if they need an improvement, it's gonna be a better 4 stroke I don't think all of the current manufacturers would survive if they were all forced to develop 4 stroke only, Beta and Gas gas could pull it off but how about the new guys 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guys Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) They don't have to spend that much millions developing a four stroke. GasGas just bought the rights to build 4 stroke and 2 stroke engines from a well known MX/Enduro brand... Maybe one day they will develop a cylinder/piston combination (and conrod bearings) (ceramic maybe) that need no lubrication so the 2 stroke engine doesn't need to burn oil, until that day I'm afraid the four stroke has the upper hand in emissions and thus the future... Edited March 3, 2014 by guys 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gooseneck Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 And honda like to be different ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj65 Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Sherco made a very good 4t, gas gas made a not so good 4t.(we'll never know how good or bad it was?) and now gas gas and ossa are virtually joined at the hip and have bought 4t tech off Husqvarna who were owned by BMW, you never know. Beta make a very good 4t, but due to the very light bikes, the 2t's rule, but maybe in the future, we might see some new 4t's in the WTC with the new rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p@ul250 Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 It's not just in trials that Honda went 4 stroke! Honda made the step a few years back to go all 4 stroke. They don't even make a 2 stroke outboard or weed whacker now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guys Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 It's not just in trials that Honda went 4 stroke! Honda made the step a few years back to go all 4 stroke. They don't even make a 2 stroke outboard or weed whacker now. It's always been the favorite engine type of Soichiro Honda, the founder. Just look at the race history of Honda for instance in the 60's and 70's, lots of (small capacity) multi cylinder high revving four strokes 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zerorev3rev4 Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 They don't have to spend that much millions developing a four stroke. GasGas just bought the rights to build 4 stroke and 2 stroke engines from a well known MX/Enduro brand... Maybe one day they will develop a cylinder/piston combination (and conrod bearings) (ceramic maybe) that need no lubrication so the 2 stroke engine doesn't need to burn oil, until that day I'm afraid the four stroke has the upper hand in emissions and thus the future... i think this is already in the making poss new greeves trials bike or norton villiers has one currently going through patent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony27 Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 They don't have to spend that much millions developing a four stroke. GasGas just bought the rights to build 4 stroke and 2 stroke engines from a well known MX/Enduro brand... Maybe one day they will develop a cylinder/piston combination (and conrod bearings) (ceramic maybe) that need no lubrication so the 2 stroke engine doesn't need to burn oil, until that day I'm afraid the four stroke has the upper hand in emissions and thus the future... Gas Gas was meant to be developing a sidevalve motor back when 2strokes were going to be banned from WTC but I doubt it was very serious about it, as it turned out Beta didn't come out with the rev4 until quite a few years after the rule was meant to come into being & Gas Gas never made a production bike, Sherco built their 320 but it's never been a big seller & I read somewhere that the development costs for the motor got them close to the wall. Developing 4stroke motors for enduro bikes is a lot more cost effective due to volumes & I'm certain that the reason Gas Gas has bought the rights for the motors has nothing to do with trials but their enduro bike range instead The technology for the bearings & cylinders has existed for years, about 20 years ago 1 of the truck manufacturers was developing a full ceramic diesel motor, was very light & needed no cooling system. Biggest problem is expense 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshman Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 and in my opion hondas last 2stroke trials machine,315r was a superherb machine.bottom end power was like nothing else.build quality was absolute bomb proof.was totally gutted when they stopped producing them. RIP 315r 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirdabalot Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 The way I see it Honda/Montesa created a 2 stroke backlash by attempting to dictate that only 4 stroke engines should be allowed by the international racing federations in all motorcycle disciplines. If we look at MX and Enduro bikes from all manufacturers we see that when the new generation 4 strokes appeared the price was about £1000 more than a 2 stroke, fair enough more parts to put in each motor, recently I notice the gap in the price between the two types has narrowed. Unfortunately the 2 strokes price seems to have gone up. Ever the cynic, I suspect the manufacturers had a toe in the water to see how much punters would pay for 4 strokes and as 2 strokes still sell, they are filling their boots by raising the price. Seen the price of Yamaha's YZ250/125? Don't get me started on the 4 stroke vs 2 stroke engine capacity that gave an unfair advantage in favour of the 4 stroke after certain manufacturers forced the door open. Warms my heart when I see 2 strokes in use, sticks 2 fingers up to forceful manufacturers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj65 Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Gas Gas was meant to be developing a sidevalve motor back when 2strokes were going to be banned from WTC but I doubt it was very serious about it, as it turned out Beta didn't come out with the rev4 until quite a few years after the rule was meant to come into being & Gas Gas never made a production bike Tap, tap, tap.............tappity, tap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0007 Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Well that thing seems to work just fine huh From what I know about engine manufacturing development cost is one thing, it can be amortized over years of production, patent infringement is the hardest thing to get around But after development the costs are still substantially higher to build the 4stroke engine You can't really charge much more for the bike cuz most buyers don't prefer it over a 2 stroke so it's just a bad business decision Better to spend development cash on an engine that is easy and cheep to build, but that's already been done to death, 2 stroke is a perfect example I heard of the ceramic engine but the machining cost is just crazy expensive It will happen when it needs to happen, necessity breeds invention, maybe 3D printers can be developed to put ceramic together and no machining will be required and they can just spit out finished components Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactusjack Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Working in a Husky dealership, the engine they have purchased will prove to be a brilliant decision by them. The X-lite motor is a brilliant little bit of kit, capable of very impressive torque and power out of a 22kg unit. It is by far and away the lightest small bore motor around at the moment and deserves to remain in manufacture. Hopefully seeing this in a trials bike will be a great move for GasGas. 4 Stroke is the future, there is no doubt of it. I love 2 Stroke motors, especially trials motors, but I think eventually they will fall by the wayside. As far as ceramic goes, all great in theory, but reliability will be an issue. Just look at the ceramic washers that were used by Sea-Doo in their supercharged jet ski's. Every one of them failed long before the motor did and disintegrated and went through the motor, leaving a true mess in it's wake. I don't think ceramic technology is quite there yet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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