nigel dabster Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 I think that as the bike (4rt) has been around for so long is it 9 years its probably profitable, as long as you dont take into account bous teams expaenses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattylad Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Cheapest world championship Honda will ever win! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perce Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Sherco made a very good 4t, It's only took me 11 days to get up from the floor after reading that one, still p****** myself laughing now. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj65 Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 It's only took me 11 days to get up from the floor after reading that one, still p****** myself laughing now. OK, it wasn't perfect, but my point was, it was made by a small manufacturer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perce Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 OK, it wasn't perfect, but my point was, it was made by a small manufacturer. Beta have done it & in doing so have created the best 4 stroke trials bike for the average rider. The only downside, it still depreciates like a 2 stroke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted March 15, 2014 Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 Beta have done it & in doing so have created the best 4 stroke trials bike for the average rider. The only downside, it still depreciates like a 2 stroke. OK first off I just personally don't like Beta. But that is just my personal opinion. now short story time. (with generalizing descriptions) I was observing at our club's event a few years ago, an expert level rider had just recently purchased a new 4T Beta. (I think it was the Rev 4 but could have been early 4T EVO) Anyways, said rider asked me if I wanted to take it for a spin. Well, sure free ride on a new bike, of course. We have a steepish hill with a mid-size log in the middle of it, with my 2- stroke second gear is about perfect for it. I left it in first gear and zoomed up the hill, unweight over the log and shut the throttle off in mid-air. It got real quiet! I thought "OH Crap, it stalled". Bike landed and I instictively twisted the throttle and it responded immediately and it just powered up the rest of the hill. I still do not like Beta (just personal opinion) but I do have to say I was actully quite impressed with the performance of that particular 4T Beta motor. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guys Posted March 15, 2014 Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 OK first off I just personally don't like Beta. But that is just my personal opinion. now short story time. (with generalizing descriptions) I was observing at our club's event a few years ago, an expert level rider had just recently purchased a new 4T Beta. (I think it was the Rev 4 but could have been early 4T EVO) Anyways, said rider asked me if I wanted to take it for a spin. Well, sure free ride on a new bike, of course. We have a steepish hill with a mid-size log in the middle of it, with my 2- stroke second gear is about perfect for it. I left it in first gear and zoomed up the hill, unweight over the log and shut the throttle off in mid-air. It got real quiet! I thought "OH Crap, it stalled". Bike landed and I instictively twisted the throttle and it responded immediately and it just powered up the rest of the hill. I still do not like Beta (just personal opinion) but I do have to say I was actully quite impressed with the performance of that particular 4T Beta motor. Does everybody now understands why 4RT's are so loud !? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyted Posted March 16, 2014 Report Share Posted March 16, 2014 What a brill topic! I think the new 4rt (and the old one's for that matter) are ace bike's. Fantastic quality. Perfect design . I'm also a fan of the BETA 4t. What i hate is " we WILL make the rules " approach Honda have got. To me they are the motorcycle cartel . BUT BUT BUT, these small European firms like KTM ,Husqvarna(now a GasGas in disguise) Triumph, Beta are building engines and bike's that can compete and win against the Jap manufacturers. As far as the future goes, if Honda can force an issue , they will , as you can be certain ,money will talk especially if the motorcycle sport politicians get involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zulujack Posted April 3, 2014 Report Share Posted April 3, 2014 I’m surprised that no one has mentioned the Elephant in the room as yet….. 4 Strokes have definitely changed the face of MX racing at the highest level, but at what cost? OK we have already covered the obvious things such as the initial purchase price of a 4T, but has anyone considered the maintenance cost? What does it cost to freshen up a 4T VS sticking a new top end on a 2T, or worse fix it when it goes “Bang”? All it’s done is widen the gap between Pro and Armature riders. It really saddens me that it has become another sport (like road racing) where having wealthy parents more often than not makes the difference between going all the way or not. Perhaps not so much of an issue for a Trials bike, but the one thing that probably could be is the noise factor. Since the manufactures turned their focus to 4Ts about a decade ago complaints about noise have sky rocketed. The Noise a 4T makes travels much further than a 2T and is much of a concern to people who like sharing the outdoors with Trail riders, or who happen to live close to MX tracks. I have watched progressively as all our MX tracks within close proximity to our suburb have been closed down one after the other due to residents complaining about the noise over the last few years. Some of these tracks had existed for decades and only became a problem in the last few years. I for one would not even look at 4T just for this reason. I love the sport of trails, but I’m not so arrogant that I’d do it without consideration for people who like to watch TV without constant fart noises in the background! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyted Posted April 3, 2014 Report Share Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) Zulujack , myself ,i couldn't agree more . Seems to me that the road racing scene is now on another dimension. When i was in my teens,loads of people could buy a racing bike over the counter. As in specifically designed for the job.Now ,manufacture of the race rep road bike is biased towards the track,but still built as a road bike.So as you state , deep pockets are needed to convert their bikes to be competitive. Before the road racing 2 stroke started it's progression(affordability) you had a motor cycle that could be bought over the counter with a spares kit and back up by any Tom , Dick or Harry. Couldn't say that about the RCV , M1 or err...err...err oh yes that Ducati thing . It's quite possible that the trials scene will go to a 3 horse race. Stupid me it almost is! Get the picture? Edited April 3, 2014 by shyted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinshocked Posted April 3, 2014 Report Share Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) I’m surprised that no one has mentioned the Elephant in the room as yet….. 4 Strokes have definitely changed the face of MX racing at the highest level, but at what cost? OK we have already covered the obvious things such as the initial purchase price of a 4T, but has anyone considered the maintenance cost? Do you really think that MX and Trials engines have the same usage and maintenance needs? Comparisons with MX and Road Racing are ludicrous. Edited April 3, 2014 by twinshocked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinshocked Posted April 3, 2014 Report Share Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) What a brill topic! I think the new 4rt (and the old one's for that matter) are ace bike's. Fantastic quality. Perfect design . I'm also a fan of the BETA 4t. What i hate is " we WILL make the rules " approach Honda have got. To me they are the motorcycle cartel . BUT BUT BUT, these small European firms like KTM ,Husqvarna(now a GasGas in disguise) Triumph, Beta are building engines and bike's that can compete and win against the Jap manufacturers. As far as the future goes, if Honda can force an issue , they will , as you can be certain ,money will talk especially if the motorcycle sport politicians get involved. A CARTEL is a group of companies or countries. Not a singular entity as you have stated. Who are these corrupt politicians you speak of? Do you have any names or proof or do you just recklessly accuse good, dedicated trials people of corruption without giving it a second thought. Edited April 3, 2014 by twinshocked 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyoldfart Posted April 3, 2014 Report Share Posted April 3, 2014 4-strokes are the enemy of off-road motorcycling, at least in the UK. Forget the fact that a 2-stroke engine might be louder than a 4-stroke at short distances, the longer wavelength of the 4-stroke engine note travels much, much further and noise is one of the first complaints to be trotted out by NIMBYs and the bobble hat brigade whenever land use is in dispute. And in this specific instance, they're right. The 2-stroke is not dead, not by a long shot. 2-strokes are the norm rather than the exception in enduro and all of the major manufacturers are gearing up to implement direct injection which will make them at least as "clean" as 4 strokes. There are some things that 4-strokes are more suited for but off-road isn't one of them. In my opinion. Honda excepted, the Japanese manufacturers obviously don't give a crap about trials and are focussed on the strangely introverted American MX market where 4-strokes still reign supreme and environmental lobbying is far more persuasive than reality. Interesting that KTM's biggest selling bike in 2013 was the (2-stroke) 300EXC enduro. And KTM are the biggest bike manufacturer in Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinshocked Posted April 3, 2014 Report Share Posted April 3, 2014 4-strokes are the enemy of off-road motorcycling, at least in the UK. Forget the fact that a 2-stroke engine might be louder than a 4-stroke at short distances, the longer wavelength of the 4-stroke engine note travels much, much further and noise is one of the first complaints to be trotted out by NIMBYs and the bobble hat brigade whenever land use is in dispute. And in this specific instance, they're right. The 2-stroke is not dead, not by a long shot. 2-strokes are the norm rather than the exception in enduro and all of the major manufacturers are gearing up to implement direct injection which will make them at least as "clean" as 4 strokes. There are some things that 4-strokes are more suited for but off-road isn't one of them. In my opinion. Honda excepted, the Japanese manufacturers obviously don't give a crap about trials and are focussed on the strangely introverted American MX market where 4-strokes still reign supreme and environmental lobbying is far more persuasive than reality. Interesting that KTM's biggest selling bike in 2013 was the (2-stroke) 300EXC enduro. And KTM are the biggest bike manufacturer in Europe. It makes no matter if it's a 4T or 2T... The wrong silencer is the reason for any bike being a nuisance. A 2T MX er with an open expansion chamber is much louder/annoying than any well muffled 4T. My Honda Civic is a 4T and it is quiet as a mouse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0007 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 If pressed, the manufacturers could develop technology to make anything quiet It's amazing what happens when necessity rears it's ugly head 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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