4T/2T Future

[zulujack]

You’d think they’d put better silencers on bikes, but sadly it just does not happen. Trials bikes are quiet compared to other things, but even at our local trials comps the one or two 4Ts are normally the only thing you hear on the other side of a hill. I think it is more a sound frequency thing than an actual volume thing, but whatever it is the sound of your average 4T single carries for miles. Not a good thing for the times we live in. Personally these are all considerations when buying a bike. If a 4T was superior in every way i.e. lighter, better grip, harder to kill, cheaper, easier to ride, easier to maintain, etc… I’d probably get over that one aspect, but let’s face it for a bike that needs to be light/manoeuvrable and does not have to be high performance I’ll go with Less-is-more.

[shyted]

Twinshocked.Go back and have a proper read of whats been stated in the messages,or read the topic from the start.

As far as "to me Honda is the motor cycle cartel" ,it's what i think pal . If you probably looked at the Honda corporation ,it's owned by several investors therefore you could say,a cartel, who try and influence change of rules to suit them self .They want to sell HONDA and sharing don't feature in their repertoire . Ducati world super bike during the 90s were penalized by weight imposition on the persistent badgering to the FIM ,of Honda in particular.As soon as they got the RC45 on the podium they shut up.

Also who mentioned road going cars,or bikes with incorrect silencers in all this?Can you prove that what i say isn't right?It may be wrong ,but i can add 2&2 together and get 4 instead of 5. If you want to trust the issue of policy in any walk of life it's up to you,but where big money is at stake,the politicians of that concern will be there hoovering up the cash. It's good you've commented on this but seem's you haven't read the whole thing.

Anyway i'm off to a ritual stoning of a guy who rode a Honda with no silencer with political connections who hates 2 strokes ,and put an old trail bike engine ,modified it to suit ,into a joke of a frame and called it a TL125 . Chuffa chuffa chuffa .Any one want to come?

Edited April 4, 2014 by shyted

[guys]

4-strokes are the enemy of off-road motorcycling, at least in the UK. Forget the fact that a 2-stroke engine might be louder than a 4-stroke at short distances, the longer wavelength of the 4-stroke engine note travels much, much further and noise is one of the first complaints to be trotted out by NIMBYs and the bobble hat brigade whenever land use is in dispute. And in this specific instance, they're right.

The 2-stroke is not dead, not by a long shot. 2-strokes are the norm rather than the exception in enduro and all of the major manufacturers are gearing up to implement direct injection which will make them at least as "clean" as 4 strokes. There are some things that 4-strokes are more suited for but off-road isn't one of them. In my opinion. Honda excepted, the Japanese manufacturers obviously don't give a crap about trials and are focussed on the strangely introverted American MX market where 4-strokes still reign supreme and environmental lobbying is far more persuasive than reality.

Interesting that KTM's biggest selling bike in 2013 was the (2-stroke) 300EXC enduro. And KTM are the biggest bike manufacturer in Europe.

Why have they waited so long to do this is what I would like to know. The technology is there for a while now...

[axulsuv]

[grumpyoldfart]

Why have they waited so long to do this is what I would like to know. The technology is there for a while now...

2 reasons: Cost and complexity. More gubbins = more cost, complexity = more difficult to fix when it goes wrong. Part of the reason a lot of people buy 2-strokes is that when you drown it in a river miles from anywhere it's relatively straightforward to get it going again. Try doing the same thing with fried EFI or bent valves.

[zulujack]

Why have they waited so long to do this is what I would like to know. The technology is there for a while now...

I think it is all in the timing. If you are KTM and your current crop of 2Ts top the sales, why would you pull out the DI trump card to sell just a few more bikes? You'd probably wait for a smaller company to take the plunge, or for sales to slump enough for it to make a real difference. Don't think becuase it is a new technology everyone would want one. Just look at what happened to the Gagiva VDue (injected 2T). In theory it should have been a big seller, but it turned out to be a complete flop.

[shyted]

Bimota/Cagiva V Due. The director of Raceways Motorcycles at Fleetwood has just bought a brand new(Old) one that doesn't run(not had the Dellorto carb conversion)from Ireland. Sac du Merde.

[0007]

There are probable a dozen real good reasons

Patent infringement

Expense

Physical dimensions

Enormous fuel pressure

Electrical output (turn over a modern DI 2 stroke by hand and feel the mag drag, WOW!)

It's just Not easy to make a direct injected 2T

4T is over 100 years old, it's easy and cheep and it's the future til electric comes of age

[lotus54]

I don't know much about DI (I like the idea, but waiting to see how they work for motorcycle).

But regular FI for a 2-stroke works excellent.

Current draw for the fuel pump can be pretty low (not that high pressure for non-DI), easy to generate the power. Reliability so far has been excellent, with I think the weak point being connectors. If they are not really good, sealed connectors (full of silicone grease) then problem is likely to show up there I think. currents for sensors are very low, so it doesn't take much resistance to mess if all up.

I ride in the mud/rain/wet all the time (rains here from time to time) and the bike runs flawlessly. Never a hiccup.

Since they kept the weight super low (163 lbs) there isn't a regular battery. THat means sort of a trick to start. They use a very small batt to chart up a condenser, that powers the injection. Plus it wants a healthy kick. A bit more weight for a proper battery would solve that I think- but it is not an issue for me.

I have not measured the current draw for the fuel pump, but I'll bet it is less than the headlamp.

I certainly understand all the comments and many I agree with. But the bike is not more expensive than comparable bikes, weighs no more, very reliable and runs perfectly all the time. Idles perfectly from cold, never need to adjust anything and runs really clean.

Now...what happens if a component flakes out on a ride? I'm screwed. But I heard all these things when CDI was being introduced (interestingly, the Spanish were among the first to make it work). Now who still uses points?

Is FI ready for dirt?

I'd say a qualified yes. BUT not every company has it quite down yet, so I'd be careful whet I'd buy.

(That from a guy that bought a bike sight unseen, ordering the first 2024 in the country).

I like new ideas and I'm willing to try them. I bought a Smart Carb for my KTM (took a bit of fettling, but worked great when all done), I'm buying. A Clake 2 dual system for my OSSA (we will see if it works)

So...take anything I say win a grain of salt. But if it doesn't work, I'll certainly say so.

Now, I'm almost certainly setting myself up for a breakdown way up in the mountains with my big talk!

Mark

[grumpyoldfart]

Well, this exists - Ossa 300i direct injection, reverse headed enduro bike. Production next year, apparently...

[zulujack]

http://www.enduro360.com/2013/02/07/blog/2013-ossa-enduro-husqvarna-sale-economic-realities/

[lotus54]

As much as I'd like to see this bike in production, I think it is a long way away, unless lots of money suddenly shoed up.

My understanding is only one was built- if it ran it almost certainly was just the trials engine.

It was sitting I the lobby of the factory.

Now that they joined with GasGas, I have not heard any more.

[shyted]

Lotus 54,yes that's true what your saying about DI and IDI . Honda (HRC) poured a barrel of money into DI 2 strokes,

only to prove one thing ,you can't control it.

Read about the Ossa Enduro and that's apparently the tech they've employed in the 2014 trials bike.

Good to see someone trying another angle.

Edited April 6, 2014 by shyted