johnnyboxer Posted May 8, 2014 Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 Right let me get something straight. We go round and record this event on video and it's a great privilege, don't get me wrong. Over the years we've seen and published many riders including top ten ones taking a stop without ultimately getting a 5 or having a dab(s) missed. This video appears to have kicked up a lot of fuss but I believe it's for no reason. Obviously we could have chosen not to include that clip but it's not often you catch the top few making errors and it COULD affect the outcome (looks unlikely now) so obviously it makes the cut for the day. Not to stir up debate but because it's interesting to most of us clubmen. I've spoke to the observer (who shares our hotel) and he's confirmed that all he did was be consistent. If he was giving Joe Blogs a 3 for making a real effort then he has to do the same with Dougie Lampkin surely. The observers here have a really tough job, try concentrating and looking through crowds of spectators for up to seven hours at a time and still catch every tiny thing. The sad thing about all this debate is the fact that the guy observing probably feels really bad now, not because of his scoring but because of the debate that's going on here. Well said, yet again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted May 8, 2014 Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 This sort of controversy is the inevitable result of riders disputing observers marking, particularly with regards as what is or is not a stop. Far too many observers have become browbeaten into over lenient marking, or quit observing. Riders riding under no stop rules need to accept that stopping will incur a five, not some favourable judgement from the observer because the only moved back a bit or moved forwards again quickly. Bending rules to different degrees, or individual observers consistently bending the rules is the road to nowhere. I feel sorry for both the observer and Dougie. I hope the 2 mark error has no influence on the result and that the observer genuinely could not see the stop from his observing position. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorcycleemptyness Posted May 8, 2014 Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 It's an International Event & the rules have been No Stop for the best part of twenty years. I'm sure what you don't grasp is this, make calls like this into a 5 & 2/3 of the entry will 5 20 out of the 30 sections a day. So if enforcing the current rules results in riders failing 20 out of 30 sections a day then so be it . That would suggest that the sections are too hard for 2/3 of the entry , if the rules are correctly implemented ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perce Posted May 8, 2014 Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 So if enforcing the current rules results in riders failing 20 out of 30 sections a day then so be it . That would suggest that the sections are too hard for 2/3 of the entry , if the rules are correctly implemented ? So do you think all them people will turn up year in year out just to get 5's? Do you think the event can run with 100 bikes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorcycleemptyness Posted May 8, 2014 Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 So do you think all them people will turn up year in year out just to get 5's? Do you think the event can run with 100 bikes? Maybe if the rules were enforced as they should be , the sections wouldn't have to be so severe ? The SSDT will always be oversubscribed no matter what the rules or how severe the sections are . It is every trials riders dream to ride the SSDT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfoot Posted May 8, 2014 Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 I don't think being consistent is the issue here . The trial is being run under No Stop rules , these rules should be enforced to the letter , otherwise they are open to abuse . This is a National Trial , arguably the Biggest Trial in the World . We need to stick to the RULES ! I have a massive respect for all observers , it's just a shame that the no stop rule is so hard to enforce and observe . We are scaring observers away from our sport since no stop was re-introduced , and if this continues no-one will want to observe and we will have no sport. All trials in Scotland have been no stop for about 10 years. This is not related to any recent change south of the border. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perce Posted May 8, 2014 Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 Maybe if the rules were enforced as they should be , the sections wouldn't have to be so severe ? The SSDT will always be oversubscribed no matter what the rules or how severe the sections are . It is every trials riders dream to ride the SSDT. You didn't follow trials in the early 90's then? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleanorbust Posted May 8, 2014 Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 Over many years I've known many good observers who might best be described as robust characters. I think many of them would have found it a difficult step to mark 5 on the card in yesterday's situation, for various reasons, correct though that would be. I think the observer was in a difficult position and had to make a decision. Perhaps it is most salient to note the reaction of one of Dougie Lampkin's closest rivals who witnessed the whole thing. He knew it was a stop but dismissed it from his mind and got on with his own attempt. It happens, always will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorcycleemptyness Posted May 8, 2014 Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 You didn't follow trials in the early 90's then? Not like i do now , but i fail to see the relevance to this topic . I don't really mind what set of rules we run by ( no stop or stop allowed ) as long as the rules are enforced so that everyone is clear on what to do . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perce Posted May 8, 2014 Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) Not like i do now , but i fail to see the relevance to this topic . I don't really mind what set of rules we run by ( no stop or stop allowed ) as long as the rules are enforced so that everyone is clear on what to do . Relevance is, SSDT was stop allowed & it virtually killed the event. Less than 200 riders & no waiting lists. I can assure you from personal experience, most lads are very willing to carry a bike round the SSDT for 6 days but they wont do it for 20 5's a day just like the tourists get for not trying & holding their hands up for a 5. Edited May 8, 2014 by perce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorcycleemptyness Posted May 8, 2014 Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 Relevance is, SSDT was stop allowed & it virtually killed the event. Less than 200 riders & no waiting lists. I can assure you from personal experience, most lads are very willing to carry a bike round the SSDT for 6 days but they wont do it for 20 5's a day just like the tourists get for not trying & holding their hands up for a Agreed. it's just a shame that the no stop rule leaves itself open to more observer discretion , which could effect the result of the top 5 % . I really hope it doesn't . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickwren Posted May 8, 2014 Report Share Posted May 8, 2014 I love the way people come on here and list about 10 different reasons why no stop doesn't work, yet still insist it's the best system 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lineaway Posted May 9, 2014 Report Share Posted May 9, 2014 This sort of controversy is the inevitable result of riders disputing observers marking, particularly with regards as what is or is not a stop. Far too many observers have become browbeaten into over lenient marking, or quit observing. Riders riding under no stop rules need to accept that stopping will incur a five, not some favourable judgement from the observer because the only moved back a bit or moved forwards again quickly. Bending rules to different degrees, or individual observers consistently bending the rules is the road to nowhere. I feel sorry for both the observer and Dougie. I hope the 2 mark error has no influence on the result and that the observer genuinely could not see the stop from his observing position. Good post. Having video and then all our opinions is the worst. We are watching a video over and over and it`s easy. The scorer saw it happen once quickly. Being it was a Lampkin was not the only issue. The scorer new already, it was for the win. My hat is off to all the scorers, tough job with the weather and spectators! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lineaway Posted May 9, 2014 Report Share Posted May 9, 2014 Agreed. it's just a shame that the no stop rule leaves itself open to more observer discretion , which could effect the result of the top 5 % . I really hope it doesn't . It is very easy to score no-stop. The riders understand it just as well. The hard part is the peer pressure from the crowd as an observer. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted May 9, 2014 Report Share Posted May 9, 2014 Relevance is, SSDT was stop allowed & it virtually killed the event. Less than 200 riders & no waiting lists. I can assure you from personal experience, most lads are very willing to carry a bike round the SSDT for 6 days but they wont do it for 20 5's a day just like the tourists get for not trying & holding their hands up for a 5. This is soo true, and nobody likes HITLER observers. There is no 4 here, but yet, this is Scottish Time, and the rules are clear. 1- Don't dick about too long! 2- Don't hop or rool back for advantage! Simples! Buy the observers more beer and feed them regularly! And how it should be! A few on here need to pull the broomstick out their backside! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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