3 Or A 5

[petert]

I am old enough to remember when things changed from 1-3-5 marking to 1-2-3-5 marking and there was only one line! I don't think so much the problem lies with the no stop rule but rather the sections themselves. C of Cs have been so used to laying out stop sections that it will take a little time to adjust to the new rules.

[smarty156]

Yes, marking will always be subjective. I just think the current rules being so harsh where a stop, feet up or not, is a 5 makes observers want to be more lenient and so there's too much subjectivity coming in.

Switching to 1 for a feet up stop would, in my opinion, drastically reduce the need for leniency and therefore subjectivity.

[dadof2]

I have just read, to my considerable dismay (I could use much stronger words) John Shirt Jnrs account of the SSDT.

He introduces 2 new "definitions" of a stop, these being a "so called stop" and a "supposed stop". Rather than disrespecting observers in this way he out to be thankful there are people willing to sit out in all weathers so that he and his works riders don't have to mark themselves.

Can you imagine the uproar if it had been someone from the same team that had given an advantageous mark contrary to video evidence?

I am aware of 2 notable issues in the last few days regarding observer availability, in one case when the organiser was asked how many observers have you got, his reply was none yet, in the second instance the organiser said we still need a lot.

Both these organisers are very well respected within the sport and have been organising or deeply involved in trials since the 1970s.

[lineaway]

Yes, marking will always be subjective. I just think the current rules being so harsh where a stop, feet up or not, is a 5 makes observers want to be more lenient and so there's too much subjectivity coming in.

Switching to 1 for a feet up stop would, in my opinion, drastically reduce the need for leniency and therefore subjectivity.

We`ve already had this one. It is still just as subjective. It was better than the rule with the all day draagg, sorry I meant dab! No- stop is still the purist set of rules. With a point for a stop, you could have a top rider three every section and never dab. Try explaining that to a new rider, spectators, or a new scorer!

[cleanorbust]

The 0.1'2'3'5 system worked fine up to the 80s when bikes stopped they tended to stay stopped.

Now a quick prod or a bounce gets them moving again.

Make it simple clean or a 5,stop if you like as long as it's feet up.

Totally fair system.

Very easy to score,wont be many arguments.,well shouldn't be.

If you mean having just two scores available, 0 for a clean and 5 for anything else, I seem to remember this has been tried unofficially in the past. Certainly it makes interesting reading if applied to a current results sheet. The effect of converting all the scores of decent riders, who get round with lots of 1s and 2s, to 5s is to increase their overall total hugely so that they are level pegging with others who fail almost every section.

[smarty156]

We`ve already had this one. It is still just as subjective. It was better than the rule with the all day draagg, sorry I meant dab! No- stop is still the purist set of rules. With a point for a stop, you could have a top rider three every section and never dab. Try explaining that to a new rider, spectators, or a new scorer!

Try explaining the current rules to a new rider/observer - yeah, see that guy that just rode through without putting a single foot down? Well, he just got a 5 (his rear wheel span on a loose rock and he stopped moving forward briefly) and that other guy that paddled his way through has beaten him by a clear 2 marks as he's only got a 3!

It's ridiculous.

Yes, you could have a top rider 3 every section if he stopped moving forward 3 or more times but at least he wouldn't get a 5 without ever putting his foot down! and don't you think he'd be doing his best not to stop and balance 3 times in a section?

Another angle to this is that stopping and balancing feet up is a sign of some skill, balance and control (what I thought trials was about). Surely we shouldn't be actively discouraging that?

I guess this just shows that even us riders can't agree so what chance do the powers that be have to make rules we all like?

At the end of the day, we should be riding and observing to the rules as written, not bending them because we don't necessarily agree with them.

Just to finish, you don't have to ride no stop - there is TSR22A "stop permitted" in ACU events. Clubs can opt for that if that's what the riders want. Our Club and Combine events are no stop but we have a team trial soon that is stop permitted. I'll let you know my thoughts on that after I've ridden it.

[perce]

Another angle to this is that stopping and balancing feet up is a sign of some skill, balance and control (what I thought trials was about). Surely we shouldn't be actively discouraging that?

Funnily enough so is keeping moving whilst not putting your feet down, the same skill set but harder to do.

Trials has considerably more problems then arguing about the rules, a side show to the real issues.

Edited May 16, 2014 by perce

[ianw]

perce, you are missing the elephant in the corner of the room. The rules were changed, (we are told by Thierry), to make trials EASIER, not harder.

This is by far the single biggest issue facing trials. Although times are very tough globally, and trials faces big challenges as the 'middle class' around the world runs out of money, the last thing the sport needed was a very controversial rule change. The majority of trials riders globally simply do not want to compete under the current non-stop rules.

Let's think about this for a while. The rules have been changed to something that the majority of riders don't want, spectators don't want, young people don't relate to, but somehow it's going to be good for the sport because it is more 'pure' in the minds of old riders ? As you also point out, it's actually harder, not easier.

If you think trials was struggling before, watch how quickly it falls in a heap under the new rules. Let's hope things are brought to a head by observers dropping out before the riders drop out.

[copemech]

OK, I'll just throw this out.

There is no way I am gonna hand out a 5 on any level for a momentary hesitation. That does not constitute a failure!

The length of that moment is up to me. And if you don't like, go complain to someone that cares!

[b40rt]

So how do you reward riders that follow the real rules ? Do you give them minus scores ?

[smarty156]

OK, I'll just throw this out.

There is no way I am gonna hand out a 5 on any level for a momentary hesitation. That does not constitute a failure!

The length of that moment is up to me. And if you don't like, go complain to someone that cares!

But that's exactly the point - under TSR22B it DOES constitute a failure. Have a read.

It's just that you obviously don't like the rule, like a lot of others, so you're making up your own rules.

[baldilocks]

Perce is right the sport has far bigger issues than petty squabbling over rules. I have said this previously. Environmental issues wont go away with stop / no stop or economic recovery. And the over 40s are rapidly turning 50 in my part of the world. Precious few young riders and thats not down to rules

[dadof2]

Take a look at the above video and it is clear many riders are stopping yet probably getting threes.

ianw #38 makes the comment that globally the majority of riders do not want no stop. I can't comment globally and I don't think anyone else can without a proper poll.

What I can state with certainty is that in Northern England entries were in decline under stop allowed and are showing a useful recovery under no stop rules. Also traditional no stop trials always continued to be well supported.

Bike sales also were in severe decline under stop allowed.

If so many riders support stop permitted why are they not turning their backs on no stop trials and running their own stop permitted events?

We all know what Raga's view of non stop was, if a number of other top line riders and manufacturers shared his view why did they not go on strike from FIM non stop trials in protest?

I never intended this topic to be about stop or no stop, it was intended to be a discussion on hard or easy sections and marking stringency.

If a trial is run under no stop, it must be ridden and marked as such.

Recently a long time trials enthusiast expressed with some contempt the view that today's riders are cheats. the By enthusiast I mean someone who has travelled extensively to trials of all levels including WTC for many many years and is known to most trials central members and held in high regard.

I can enjoy watching both stop and no stop trials and it would be a great shame if Bou, Raga etc did not have somewhere to show their skills but the fact is (in my area at least) the great majority do not have the time nor the inclination to learn stop permitted skills and if stop permitted returns they will turn their backs on organised trials.

[johnnyboxer]

Well said, DADOF2

[pro sport]

I am old enough to remember when things changed from 1-3-5 marking to 1-2-3-5 marking and there was only one line! I don't think so much the problem lies with the no stop rule but rather the sections themselves. C of Cs have been so used to laying out stop sections that it will take a little time to adjust to the new rules.

Take a look at the above video and it is clear many riders are stopping yet probably getting threes.

ianw #38 makes the comment that globally the majority of riders do not want no stop.

If a trial is run under no stop, it must be ridden and marked as such trials.

I am also old enough to have started under 0 1 3 5 rules , but I gave up when sections were made more difficult in the mono-shock era,I got fed up repairing my bike and myself.

If we take the above video as an example - those sections are set out to test the best in our game and not the rest of us mere mortals, and even those top guys were having troubles.

If people want trials set out like that and stop allowed then there must be a series set up for them surely we can run 2 sets of rules and keep events seperate but the sport in general the same.

As for me I'm happy back riding in trials like I grew up in, no stop , that the C o C has set out so that the entry can clean at least 60% of the sections and the club regularly get entries of over a hundred riders including more than half of them from 11 to 30 age and we always seem to get a full compliment of observers that mark correctly to nonstop rules.

I want to see trials survive as we all do, so forget the in-fighting and let's get our heads together to fight against the loss of the one thing the sport cannot do without - the ground to run events on !