b40rt Posted May 21, 2014 Report Share Posted May 21, 2014 smarty156, I hope someone in high places reads your post, because it sums up the situation perfectly. Toni Bou is really the only rider in the world that makes non-stop look good, but most of the observers at WTC level bend the rules to give the other guys a chance at his expense. It is a shambles. The same thing happens at small events all around the world. It doesn't matter if you are in favour of stop or non-stop, you can see that the current rules are unfair and divisive, and do not encourage riders to have a good go at cleaning a section. If in doubt, put your foot down and keep moving. It is nonsense. Although I firmly believe that for trials to survive the rules should go back to 'stop-allowed' , failing that, the current rules need urgent amendment. The penalty should be 1 for a stop of more than 3 seconds. Additionally, I believe that you should be able to score '5' made up of either 5 stops or 5 dabs, to encourage riders to keep trying to ride correctly. Many sports have handicap systems to level the playing field, no stop works well in trials. Don't like the rules ? Get a group of like minded riders together and lay out your own trial and enjoy. Don't try and spoil no stop because you can't do it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalley250 Posted May 21, 2014 Report Share Posted May 21, 2014 No stop is flawed to the point its often not worth riding them and i try at best to avoid them. Example one section the obsever stuck to no stop n i stopped for near on a second n fived it as my mate cleaned it, next section the observer allowed stops to which i didnt stop n yes my mate stopped n got the clean, so for me the results meant nothing. Top riders get away with murder on no stop ive seen endless fives that never appear on results. My next point is beginners stop a hell of alot and for them it must be disheartening learing process to battle through a section whilst the observer is marking a 5 and turning away to chat. No stop does need better sections than stop permitted as we lose land this makes for some trials trying to use very tight turns to make the trial worth while but impossible no stop. The sport to watch looks boring no stop and youngsters like to hop n bop with alot doing bycycle trials that wouldnt look to motorcycle trials as a step up as its going backwards to the good old days no stop n heavier bikes. It would be interesting to poll the age group that do like no stop. This sport needs Martin Lampkin at top level to help out as he came gave us a great indoor trial, not backward thinking to days of old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smarty156 Posted May 21, 2014 Report Share Posted May 21, 2014 Many sports have handicap systems to level the playing field, no stop works well in trials. Don't like the rules ? Get a group of like minded riders together and lay out your own trial and enjoy. Don't try and spoil no stop because you can't do it. There is no handicap system in trials though. Nobody is saying they can't do no stop. On the contrary, I ride no stop better than I do stop permitted. Unfortunately, the results don't always show this due to everything I stated above. That kind of makes it a bit pointless under the current rules and marking. I'd be happy to stay no stop. I find it much easier, physically and now I'm over 40 that suits me! Just replace stopping and receiving a 5 with stopping (feet up) receiving a 1 (stopping feet down still a 5) and I think it would make a massive improvement to riders, observers and CofCs. Just my opinion though. Maybe we should have a poll? Current no stop rules v my no stop suggestion v something else entirely? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted May 21, 2014 Report Share Posted May 21, 2014 (edited) So basically, its not the rules that are at fault, it's the implementation of them that is ? But saying that, there is one thing in trials that could fix it all ! and that is Honesty ! ( ha ha will never happen ) How many riders drop a mark or two and love it that the observer didn't spot it? Do they ever say , sorry, I took a dab there so its not a clean ? (I accept there will be a few people who will do this but its not the majority and if you ever go to the WTC, some riders will swear on their mothers lives that they never dropped a mark knowing they did) So we have most people kicking off when they get penalised for a 5 when they think they shouldn't, but they don't mention it if the observer misses a dropped mark or two - hypocrisy or what ? Edited May 21, 2014 by atomant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted May 21, 2014 Report Share Posted May 21, 2014 It's about the huge difference between a clean and a 5 under the current rules. A dab or too will 'all come out in the wash', but not an arbitrary 5 v's 0 subject to the 'interpretation' of the observer. Missing a dab is one thing, but when they allow a rider to stop but give them a clean, it is simply not a 'mistake', but a deliberate decision to ignore the rule because it doesn't make sense. Simplistically, it is easier to ride non-stop at an intermediate level, but harder at an advanced level. At beginner level, all trials can be ridden non-stop regardless of the rules as it is really only 'trail riding'. Advanced riders learn advanced skills by stopping, and many of the skills that have been developed require a 'dynamic stop' to execute. Once they learn those skills stopping, advanced riders can then learn how to use them non-stop. The skills are here to stay. The worlds best riders still win at non-stop using skills developed by stopping, and Toni Bou is probably even more dominating than he was becausue he can use all the tricks but still keep moving. All the WTC guys still practice stopping. Go and watch them in the pits or warming up. We can't take that knowledge back now, they know the secrets, and the tricks will remain part of trials whatever we do. The question we must ask, however, is whether we are making it harder for riders to progress into the expert ranks, or easier as Thierry had hoped. I believe we are making it harder, less enjoyable for the riders and there is no question that WTC trials is not nearly as appealing to the majority of spectators as it was. looks like lose-lose situation to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mokwepa Posted May 21, 2014 Report Share Posted May 21, 2014 So basically, its not the rules that are at fault, it's the implementation of them that is ? But saying that, there is one thing in trials that could fix it all ! and that is Honesty ! ( ha ha will never happen ) How many riders drop a mark or two and love it that the observer didn't spot it? Do they ever say , sorry, I took a dab there so its not a clean ? (I accept there will be a few people who will do this but its not the majority and if you ever go to the WTC, some riders will swear on their mothers lives that they never dropped a mark knowing they did) So we have most people kicking off when they get penalised for a 5 when they think they shouldn't, but they don't mention it if the observer misses a dropped mark or two - hypocrisy or what ? Well said. I own up to every unseen dab. If I beat someone, I want to know I beat them fair and square. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted May 21, 2014 Report Share Posted May 21, 2014 (edited) Ianw, This just shows that Toni Bou has evolved his riding to adapt to the new(old) rules and as always, is way ahead of his peers at it. I for one prefer to see him ride in the no-stop fashion displaying his awesome talent on the move than I do seeing him balance for 20 seconds whilst he thinks about going up a huge step. Its exactly how I envisaged no-stop going and I believe it can take trials to a whole new level, simply because it is more dynamic, more natural. For me, a bike flowing through a section with style is a joy to the eye ( that's why I am a big Ross Danby fan because his smooth style of riding is beautiful to watch) Like I said, its the implementation of the rules that is the problem. You mention 'interpretation' regarding the observers view of the rules so therefore, if observers have differing views on how the rules should be applied, then its how they have been taught how to apply the rules which is a potential cause of the problem is it not? Edited May 21, 2014 by atomant 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabby Posted May 21, 2014 Report Share Posted May 21, 2014 Jeez...I've been riding no stop for the whole four years Ive been doing this sport, know no better and hey guess what ? Everything is just leachy thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalley250 Posted May 21, 2014 Report Share Posted May 21, 2014 Like I said, its the implementation of the rules that is the problem. You mention 'interpretation' regarding the observers view of the rules so therefore, if observers have differing views on how the rules should be applied, then its how they have been taught how to apply the rules which is a potential cause of the problem is it not? Yes and we always get a full set of professional observers at every no stop trial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted May 21, 2014 Report Share Posted May 21, 2014 Yes and we always get a full set of professional observers at every no stop trial. What do you mean 'professional' exactly? Are you saying that an average observer isn't capable of knowing the difference between a bike that has stopped moving forward and one that hasn't? If I am observing and the CoC wants me to give anyone who stops a 5 thats what they get. Whether its 1 second or 10 seconds. My point is, if the observers are asked to observe in a particular way, and they do that. the trial is consistent for everyone is it not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalley250 Posted May 21, 2014 Report Share Posted May 21, 2014 Yes we often opt for anyone or mark each other then you get mates or mums n dads not exactly professional and this is in Yorkshire. Dont think my wife would give a 5h!t about no stop rule n argue with riders if she observered. I explained the no stop rules n she said sounds a nightmare no thanks however stop she understood and did obserever once, sadly she found it boring. I actively try to avoid no stop as its unfair open to cheating and beginners loose out. If it all went no stop i would pack in as much as i love the sport n spend alot on bikes n equipment. Enduro would be be what id go back to best flat out using all skills no silly rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted May 21, 2014 Report Share Posted May 21, 2014 No stop does a great job of keeping riders from moving up into higher classes. There was a video posted (I think in this thread) that showed two riders going through a section with many rocks, big and small. First rider rode excellent and cleaned it, second rider had difficulties and stopped with foot down. It was billed as showing how horrible stop allowed was. But what I saw was a good rider followed by a rider that has just moved up a class and was trying his best to finish the section. From what I saw he made all his markers, did not back up and basically finished the section with just putting his feet down and the occaisonal stop. for a score of 3. Now imagine if that event was run no-stop. Second rider would not try the harder class because they would already know that out of 40 section attempts they would have 40 fives for a maximun score of 200. If the rider can get through some of the sections with 3's they will be inclined to come back, keep trying and keep pushing themselves to ride higher class sections. Just my opinion but for what it is worth if we combine the two scoring systems like the ITSA does, it would be a decent compromise. Stop balance (feet up, No other assistance) = 0 Stop foot down (you are a kickstand, bike can do this without you) = 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalley250 Posted May 21, 2014 Report Share Posted May 21, 2014 I concur Zippy why try to ride harder or even learn as soon as you stop FIVE. not really easy to introduce people into a harsh scoring system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 atomant, there is no longer any point saying that the observing needs to be 'better'. The observing can't possibly get better under the current rules. Saying that Toni Bou was waiting 20 seconds before a huge rock step is part of the problem we have. It's simply not accurate, and he can almost ride indoor non-stop. The WTC and Thierry Michaud are putting an enormous effort into observing at the highest level, but the rubbish is still happening. Five is clearly too harsh for a feet up stop, and only possibly makes sense if you are only driven by a philosophical bent, rather than a practical one. There is no other sport on the planet where random people are trying to force competitors to compete with a certain 'style', and what is happening in trials is ludicrous. There is no way that the riding on display in the video's of the first Britsh Chamionship this year is good to watch. The riders look like unskilled idiots, (which they are not). I know observers, riders, and spectators from the Australian World round this year, and the event was damaging for all concerned because of inconsistent observation. That is in spite of everyone's best efforts and under the strict control of the worlds best 'experts'. If this was a business, and a CEO kept doing something so flawed, he would be sacked. I keep wondering why old folk who can't ride very are so determined to force non-stop on the good riders of the world. No one was forcing old timers to 'stop' while riding in their lower grades, and I don't get why old timers are so intent on forcing good riders to ride 'their way' because it is pure and noble and oh so British. I regard the change to the current non-stop rules as the most selfish and narrow minded decisions that I have ever seen in any sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 (edited) atomant, there is no longer any point saying that the observing needs to be 'better'. The observing can't possibly get better under the current rules. I totally disagree on both points. Non-stop rules have been successfully applied for many many years and what we are seeing today is modern riders having to 'adapt' to these rules and change their style of riding. If they are aware that a stop is a 5 then it will drive them to ensure they don't stop. Simples ! Observing just needs to be consistent, Thats all anyone here seems to want ! I know observers, riders, and spectators from the Australian World round this year, and the event was damaging for all concerned because of inconsistent observation. That is in spite of everyone's best efforts and under the strict control of the worlds best 'experts'. If this was a business, and a CEO kept doing something so flawed, he would be sacked. Exactly my comments earlier, its the implementation of the rules that is the problem. Don't blame the observers ! Edited May 22, 2014 by atomant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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