4Rt Gearbox Oil Continued.

[shyted]

Think it's very difficult and confusing for the user to pick through whats fact and whats backing . Think that the manufacturers have brand loyalty for their countries products and backing for their teams.Bet if that bike was built in the U.K it would have Castrol os Silkolene in it.Just take note how sudden the performance of the HTX drops off for the hours you use the bike.

dadof2 yes i agree and also as i stated earlier,some of the addatives can have a chemical reaction if water enters the oil and corrode the box to bloody hell.What makes me laugh is when they state it's say 10w 40 Turbo diesel oil. Ran 10w 40 "OIL FOR PETROL ENGINES" oil in my old Peugeot 405 turbo and it did 400,000 miles plus without any engine work .

[jrsunt]

Motul 300v or similar bike branded oil 5w30 in gearbox and engine, if its good enough for 100+bhp superbikes shoving bucket loads of torque through a wet clutch then its more than good enough for a 4rt. Used it in all my clutches for the last 9 years, only ever replaced 1 clutch pack.

Perhaps elf had some arrangement with honda to recommend their product for x amount of years, what does it recommend in the CR or XR manuals?

[hannu]

What about this ? :-

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-801-silkolene-light-gear-oil-for-competition-and-road-motorcycles.aspx

Seems to tick all the boxes !

[billyt]

Here is my take on this whole Elf oil product in a Repsol Petroleum company sponsored trials team.

What came first the dragging sticky Montesa clutch (used in the 315 and 4RT) or the Elf HTX oil?

If the dragging sticky clutch was there from the onset then Honda/Montesa would have sought
out and tried different transmission oils to solve the dragging issue. Given that this was almost ten years or so ago when they first started using it in their 315 2T why not stick with it today.

Its certainly not from a marketing relationship with ELF. Someone correct me here has there ever been an official Montesa trials team sponsored by ELF through the years?

The fact that the manual suggests Repsol oil in the engine yet ELF HTX740 in the clutch helps my case. You can bet they tried the Repsol clutch oil and did not take care of a sticky dragging clutch. Surely Repsol asked them “why not use all our petroleum offerings in the bike” I bet they tried but the clutch oil fell short, not because it is bad oil but rather it could not completely cure the problem. I am not suggesting that all Montesa's have this issue but there some out there
in the prior model years.

The same could be said for the front and rear brake fluid, why not use Repsol fluids? Maybe beacuse the company that designed the front and rear master cylinder designed it and warranties it to Montesa based upon a specific type and brand of hydraulic fluid?

They may have tried a Repsol substitute in the clutch but it still dragged and was sticky, so why not stick with what has been somewhat successful.

The clutch pack has not change that much since its inception and introduction from 315 2T to 4RT.

In reality oil technology has moved on since then and there must be many brands of oil out there now than can do the job just as well if not better than the ELF HTX740.

I seriously doubt they designed a clutch pack so they could use ELF clutch oil. Rather they sought out an oil that helped solve a sticky dragging clutch and the ELF did the trick at that time in space and current oil technology.

However I don't think it solved the problem completely as some prior and new bikes still have sticky dragging 315 2T & 4RT clutches.

I have no use for the HTX 740 and have sought out another brand that for me so far has resulted in a more progressive engaged fully released clutch in my 2014 Repsol.

I use an oil that is made for a wet clutch application and is predominately a clutch based oil rather than predominantly a gear box oil that can be use in a clutch application.

For Honda to recommend a whole new brand of clutch oil would take a lot of testing on their part and support, to put that much engineering effort, time, money into that and maybe come up with a
clutch oil other than a Repsol product would really be slap in the face for Repsol, so best leave alone!

Honda/Montesa have other battles to fight right now.

Edited May 31, 2014 by billyt

[shyted]

As for billyt's last post,that's from someone with bag's of experience with Mont's and trials bikes.

But if you also notice ,he has turned into Dr Who ( a TV program time traveler for people outside of the U.K) with the year of his bike so really does have ton's and ton's of experience and discovered time travel . How good is that ? 2104 Repsol anyone ?

Sorry Billy couldn't resist ?

Edited May 30, 2014 by shyted

[billyt]

oops good catch Shyted. Actually the "T" in BIllyT stands for "Tardis" LOL

[shyted]

What about this ? :-

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-801-silkolene-light-gear-oil-for-competition-and-road-motorcycles.aspx

Seems to tick all the boxes !

The good thing about this oil dealer is they have a customer service line with a person at the end of it, and Silkolene is good stuff ,U.K (EU) company . You most certainly can't knock the price . I've dealt with Opie oils ( dealt with them in France as well) and they're very good and i fancy a little chat on the phone , of which i will give you all jackanory time .

I still think it's not just down to oil though . I think at this stage that the plates need scrutiny . I for one don't think that Tony Bou will have the same plates and HTX in his gear box.So someone with a brain has thought to try different thing's there.

Any one used the Silkolene advertised in the link above ?

[mags]

Bou would have plates set to his weight and "friction feel he likes" maybe but he could easily be running the ELF HTX?

Mags

[dadof2]

http://www.wp-motorsport.co.uk/res/HTX740_uk.pdf

Read the above - makes you wonder?

This looks like an HTHS lubricant which would cause a wet clutch not to engage properly as in my previous post. However because a 4RT is low geared, has a low power output and a large clutch the lack of prompt full engagement is probably not an issue.

Edited May 31, 2014 by dadof2

[shyted]

Bou would have plates set to his weight and "friction feel he likes" maybe but he could easily be running the ELF HTX?

Mags

Quite possible mags but don't think his major sponsor Repsol would be keen to enforce that , when possibly they produce something better.

[gunbunny]

Found a stockist in the UK, Mark at Trials World now holds a stock of the ELF htx 740, just placed my order.

http://www.trialswales.com/

[jj65]

BVM have Elf HTX 740 in stock, just recieved a couple of bottles. I have always used it, and never had any problems.

[shyted]

Just had a couple of interesting conversations.Firstly with a guy called Ken Knight who is an oil rep for industrial application oils . I know what you might be thinking here but you would be surprised at the qualities of lets say Castrol AWS 42 Hydraulic . It looks as clear as water and the consistency of baby oil , although i wouldn't recommend giving your misses a rub down with it,it performs in some really harsh conditions.

I explained to him what i'd tried and he said " you can't generalize with a 'Target oil'. you will find that the mid range operation of target oils is good and the extremities of the temperature range not as suitable.

Whats happening is the manufacturer is trying to get round a problem the cheapest way and the fault lie's elsewhere"

Interesting .

I spoke to another guy who i won't name but let's say this ,he's no fool and dealt with Montesa independently for a while.

Prior to this i did a little experiment. Changed the oils. New HTX in the gear box.Ran up to temp in neutral and with no chain on.After 15 mins the drag of the oil gave up and the gearbox sprocket stopped moving. Faultless gear selection and found neutral no problem. Put the bike in 2nd gear and tried to stop the sprocket turning with the sole of my cappers with the clutch disengaged . Not a cat in hell's chance ! Hence hard (odd) selection when the chain is fitted.

So the conversation went like this.What's your bike like with the aftermarket clutch assembly in ?

" much better than standard and i also run 10w 30 in the gearbox and have done for ages ".

Kind of put's things in perspective really .

So next i'm going to try Spotsawyers clutch arrangement and see how it goes.Still not sold on the HTX though.

Ted.

Edited July 4, 2014 by shyted

[hannu]

What about this ? :-

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-801-silkolene-light-gear-oil-for-competition-and-road-motorcycles.aspx

Seems to tick all the boxes !

Well last week I replaced my gear oil with this, seems like a similar consistency to the original oil so we'll see how its how, Appears to be ok round the garden ! If it works out it's a reasonable cost effective alternative

[ross brown]

Here is my take on this whole Elf oil product in a Repsol Petroleum company sponsored trials team.

I have no use for the HTX 740 and have sought out another brand that for me so far has resulted in a more progressive engaged fully released clutch in my 2014 Repsol.

I use an oil that is made for a wet clutch application and is predominately a clutch based oil rather than predominantly a gear box oil that can be use in a clutch application..

Hi Billyt

Very enigmatic reply there when it came to naming the oil you use in your 2014. Am I missing something here ( political reason not to name the oil).

Have just added a newer Mont to my own stable and couldn't find Elf locally. Have been using Silkolene SRG Pro 75 in previous Mont and some who rode it thought the clutch too much like a switch. On or off. Suited me. But a new relationship is cause for a re-think of one's old ways.

Across various oil threads there are posters who say 'why not just use what the manual recommends' . The first reason, pointed out by quite a few others but which seems to be regularly forgotten is that ELF is not available everywhere, and it is frowned upon to try and post containers of oil through the mail overseas (men in sharp black suits and mirrored sunglasses will soon start to take an interest in your activities).

TC has grown to become a global forum- thank you Andy.

I for one cherish these technical discussions about how to solve problems and to improve upon what we have in our garage. So thank you Shyted for kicking off an oil thread that has resulted in cascading new knowledge. I'm loath to start chopping and changing oils as any residue on the plates will affect the 'new' oil's performance. Much better in my mind to change an oil and stick with it through several cycles of change. So keen to see where this thread leads to.

Edited July 11, 2014 by ross brown