4Rt Gearbox Oil Continued.

[shyted]

Agree to a degree there Ross Brown . Re tried the HTX and made my mind up about it . It did make the clutch action a little less smoother on take up and finding neutral could be done for the first hour . After that i couldn't find it . So next up im going to try GRO . The Putoline is better so far.

I got the motor hot and let it drain overnight . Won't clean the plates off ,but oils of the same spec will mix so dilution will play it's part after a good warm up a couple of times and soak the plates.

That's were i think the main problem lies and i will be putting a different arrangement in quit soon.

Edited October 19, 2014 by shyted

[chuck4788]

Good discussion but I would add that at least here is the USA most modern car oils have anti fricion additives that can cause clutch slippage.and#160; Been there done that with Mobil 1 oils in my XR.

and#160;

ATF oils are wet clutch gear oils, which is what our 315Rs have.

and#160;

Besides all of the comments about cork vs paper friction plates and flat vs dimpered steels a dimpered steel has less drag, except my CRF250X has no drag with smooth steels. So YMMV.

and#160;

Synthetic ATFs have doubled or tripled the life of auto trannies for cars and trucks.

and#160;

Thin oils provide less drag and faster hookup, thicker oils more drag and slower hookup.

Oil viscosties are available at each oil mfg web site.

and#160;

All of which is why I run the Elf oil or Valvoline Dextron VI in my Monty.

and#160;

The 315R and 4RT clutches are based on the CR250R clutch, as is the CRF450F clutch.

 

On edit: my 315 has a CR250 clutch pack. A friend has an 05 4RT and it has the original plates and terribly grabby clutch with lots of judder using the ELF oil.

Edited August 23, 2016 by chuck4788

[geeman]

Hi does anyone know where to get ELF or GRO in the USA ?? also billyt can you reveal the oil you usa and are happy with ??

[geeman]

ops !!! fat thumbs !!! billyt ( the oil you are using and happy with ) cheers geeman

[billyt]

I use the 5/40 in the clutch and 10/40 in the gear box.

The lighter weight oil works great in the clutch and the heaver oil for the gear box.

Even though this oil is a synthetic it does not cause clutch slippage.

The Trizone technology is the secret. Trizone as in Gear Box, Wet Clutch, Engine.

I would suggest you educate your self on “Trizone” on Castrol’s web site.

Edited August 15, 2014 by billyt

[chuck4788]

Suggest this site for info on JASO certified wet clutch oils.

http://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/JASO_MA_JASO_MB.php

[ross brown]

I use the 5/40 in the clutch and 10/40 in the gear box.

The lighter weight oil works great in the clutch and the heaver oil for the gear box.

Sorry i thought we were talking 4RTs here. The Elf oil replacement under discussion goes into a single chamber that houses both the clutch AND gearbox/ transmission. The other oil, the one in the 10w-30 or 5w-40 range is for the engine oil that circulates in the forward chamber .and lubricates crank, cam chain, valves and so on. Edited August 15, 2014 by ross brown

[guys]

Sorry i thought we were talking 4RTs here. The Elf oil replacement under discussion goes into a single chamber that houses both the clutch AND gearbox/ transmission. The other oil, the one in the 10w-30 or 5w-40 range is for the engine oil that circulates in the forward chamber .and lubricates crank, cam chain, valves and so on.

You're right about the places where the oils go, but according to my manual it's 10W40 for the engine oil.

Edited August 15, 2014 by guys

[jrsunt]

Specific performance motorcycle engine oil is good for the clutch as it is designed to run in wet clutches, unlike the atf fluids, I use 5w30 motul 300v factory line, not cheap but works very well.

[tman427]

Here is my take on this whole Elf oil product and#160;in a Repsol Petroleum company sponsored trials team.and#160;

and#160;

What came first the dragging sticky Montesa clutch (used in the 315 and 4RT) or the Elf HTX oil?

and#160;

If the dragging sticky clutch was there from the onset then Honda/Montesa would have sought

out and tried different transmission oils to solve the dragging issue. Given that this was almost ten years or so ago when they first started using it in their 315 2T why not stick with it today.

and#160;

Its certainly not from a marketing relationship with ELF. Someone correct me here has there ever been an official and#160;Montesa trials team sponsored by ELF through the years?

and#160;

The fact that the manual suggests Repsol oil in the engine yet ELF HTX740 in the clutch helps my case. You can bet they tried the Repsol clutch oil and did not take care of a sticky dragging clutch. Surely Repsol asked them and#8220;why not use all our petroleum offerings in the bike” I bet they tried but the clutch oil fell short, not because it is bad oil but rather it could not completely cure the problem. I am not suggesting that all Montesa's have this issue but there some out there

in the prior model years.

The same could be said for the front and rear brake fluid, why not use Repsol fluids? Maybe beacuse the company that designed the front and rear master cylinder designed it and warranties it to Montesa based upon a specific type and brand of hydraulic fluid?

and#160;

They may have tried a Repsol substitute in the clutch but it still dragged and was sticky, so why not stick with what has been somewhat and#160; successful.

and#160;

The clutch pack has not change that much since its inception and introduction from 315 2T to 4RT.and#160;

and#160;

In reality oil technology has moved on since then and there must be many brands of oil out there now than can do the job just as well if not better than the ELF HTX740.

and#160;

I seriously doubt they designed a clutch pack so they could use  ELF clutch oil. Rather they sought out an oil that helped solve a sticky dragging clutch and the ELF did the trick at that time in space and current oil technology.

and#160;

However I don't think it solved the problem completely as some prior and new bikes still have sticky dragging 315 2T and 4RT clutches.

and#160;

I have no use for the HTX 740 and have sought out another brand that for me so far has resulted in a more progressive engaged fully released clutch in my 2014 Repsol.

and#160;

I use an oil that is made for a wet clutch application and is predominately a clutch based oil rather than predominantly a gear box oil that can be use in a clutch application.

and#160;

For Honda to recommend a whole new brand of clutch oil would take a lot of testing on their part and support, to put that much engineering effort, time, money into that and maybe come up with a

clutch oil other than a Repsol product would really be slap in the face for Repsol, so best leave alone!

and#160;

Honda/Montesa have other battles to fight right now.

 

So what gearbox oil to you use to replace the ELF?

[epmd]

For what it's worth, here is my experience with a 2016 4RT260. I did the first engine and gear oil change at 8 hours. Couldn't find Elf anywhere so I bought Belray 75W Gear Saver.

It turned the clutch into a light switch. What used to be super smooth and with a nice easy transition between engaged and disengaged became very abrupt and hard to control.

Then, thanks to the forum, I asked my local Honda dealer if they could order Honda part no. 08C35-HTX-740. He had no idea what it was but he tried and a week later he got it, it's in the bike and the clutch is back to the way it was.

The downside? It's insanely expensive. Almost $60 per liter. I bought 2 bottles. Oh well. I plan to change at 30 hours intervals.

[steve fracy]

On ‎2016‎-‎08‎-‎17 at 2:56 PM, tman427 said:

 

So what gearbox oil to you use to replace the ELF?

I am using Amsoil Super Shift in my 300rr and the clutch works exactly the same as it did brand new with the Elf oil in it. its very affordable and easy to find

[jonnyc21]

How thin in comparison to ELF oil is the supper shift, if you recall?  

[steve fracy]

I would say it is very similar. I was a bit worried about what oil to use and could find the Elf anywhere. So I was quite relieved to know that using the Amsoil supershift has not changed anything in the way the clutch works at all

[jmutiger]

I'm running Maxima MX530 in both my engine and transmission, and it feels very good to me.  I've previously run this oil on my snowbike which had a turbo on it and fully trust this oil beyond all other oils to do what it's supposed to do all the time.  I even had a turbo oil return line come off and kept riding not knowing, 4hrs later the engine survived with 300ml of 1.7l left.  I'm sold that their additives are by far the most protective and I really like the clutch feel in all the bikes I've used it in.  Used oil analysis shows more additives in used samples than new samples from other manufacturers by a long shot too.  A website called "bob is the oil guy" has more info on what goes into oils than most people would ever care to know.  But if you make an informed decision on what oil type / brand / weight  it's a smarter choice than just using what ever more people choose which is highly influenced by price in my experience.