NAD1 Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 I've seen WTC rounds in UK, France, Andorra, Czech Republic and Poland over the years but never have I seen such atrocious observing decisions as I witnessed this weekend. A few of the many examples Saturday section 4: Bou still for at least 4-5 seconds and bike stalled, got away with a 0 Saturday section 3: Ferrer given a 5 for the merest of stops, was not 'technically' stationary either Sunday section 8: Grattarola having the ride of the first lap and blitzing the rocks that most others (inc Bou) 5'd and got given a 5 yet, same section other riders actually stopped getting away with it. Sunday section 2: sheppard stopping, going backwards, going sideways and getting a 3 There were many more examples of this pathetic observing but these were the worst that I witnessed with my own eyes. The worst and most blatant was Bou on section 4, how anyone with a functioning eye could say he did not stop is beyond comprehension. Ultimately probably didn't alter too much position wise but clear 'benefit' being given to some riders and not others.... If you want to run stupid, impossible rules MAKE IT FAIR FOR ALL RIDERS. Also, for what it's worth every rider stopped in pretty much every section!! Idiotic rules and unbelievable observing aside, CRACKING weekend in Penrith. Well done all who made it happen 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackoo40 Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 Agreed, rules do make the job almost impossible though, but that doesn't explain some of the decision's. I think in every sport what everyone wants is consistency. What training if any did the observers get? Surely FIM representative should be running examples and giving instruction to help the observers who are all well meaning and volunteers putting themselves in high pressure situations. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mags Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 Thats a shame! I assumed that observing at WTC level was very professional. Another balloon burst... I have found over the years that anything I get involved in I get fairly passionate. I have learnt to stay away from the politics or any committee positions as thats when it goes bad for me. Too many arguments... usually with fools who can't see the big picture or are on power trips. I like stopping in my imaginary sections where we ride, I even stop against a tree then pull bike backwards a foot to then go around it, the stuff of pure 5's! I have so much fun though.... and a grin like a Cheshire Cat! Hehehehe I will conform one day!! Hehehehehe One thing I may do is observing at comps. I'll need far more experience and carry 3 litres of professionalism... but one day I'd be proud to observe an event! If I was paying good money to attend a WTC event and saw biased observing I'd feel let down and somewhat anticlimactic . Maybe its best I never go near one! Mags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lineaway Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Shame on them. Rules are rules. Trials is always been based on rules. Scoring the current rules is no different from the past. The problem is the larger the crowd, the more a scorer can be swayed. The best 5 I scored last year was a marker Raga kicked to the air. He made it back to me running down the hill just as the marker hit the ground. He screamed `no fair, no fair` till the moment he saw it hit the ground. By the way Raga was the best rider on my section that weekend. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 I think gratterolla being given a 5 is fair when you consider what he gets away with in italy. What the italian and french observers have got down to a fine art is the borderline decisions go their riders way and vice versa. it would be much better to show the british observers this as much as any training in whats right and wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phb Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 I've seen WTC rounds in UK, France, Andorra, Czech Republic and Poland over the years but never have I seen such atrocious observing decisions as I witnessed this weekend. A few of the many examples Saturday section 4: Bou still for at least 4-5 seconds and bike stalled, got away with a 0 Saturday section 3: Ferrer given a 5 for the merest of stops, was not 'technically' stationary either Sunday section 8: Grattarola having the ride of the first lap and blitzing the rocks that most others (inc Bou) 5'd and got given a 5 yet, same section other riders actually stopped getting away with it. Sunday section 2: sheppard stopping, going backwards, going sideways and getting a 3 There were many more examples of this pathetic observing but these were the worst that I witnessed with my own eyes. The worst and most blatant was Bou on section 4, how anyone with a functioning eye could say he did not stop is beyond comprehension. Ultimately probably didn't alter too much position wise but clear 'benefit' being given to some riders and not others.... If you want to run stupid, impossible rules MAKE IT FAIR FOR ALL RIDERS. Also, for what it's worth every rider stopped in pretty much every section!! Idiotic rules and unbelievable observing aside, CRACKING weekend in Penrith. Well done all who made it happen shall we put you down for a section next year then mate and see how you get on , remember the observers are volunteers and yes they make mistakes, they don't need a load of arm chair observers putting even more pressure on them, agreed the rules are bloody stupid, but that's the rules they have to try and work with 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micm Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 phb... I have learnt to stay away from the politics or any committee positions as thats when it goes bad for me. Too many arguments... usually with fools who can't see the big picture or are on power trips. Fools etc...Or to describe them another way, the people who are prepared to organise all the events in Oz and everywhere else. Thanks. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie_lejeune Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 phb... I have learnt to stay away from the politics or any committee positions as thats when it goes bad for me. Too many arguments... usually with fools who can't see the big picture or are on power trips. Fools etc...Or to describe them another way, the people who are prepared to organise all the events in Oz and everywhere else. Thanks. well said mucker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 so because hes a volunteer he shouldnt give Bou a 5 when he stalls kicks it over twice and gets a clean? and if its £25 on the gate why are they volunteers ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phb Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Bou should have been given a 5 for that, its a blatant 5, but unfortunately the observer didn't give it, but moaning about the observers wont change the results will it, do you really think that by paying observers it will change anything, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAD1 Posted July 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 shall we put you down for a section next year then mate and see how you get on , remember the observers are volunteers and yes they make mistakes, they don't need a load of arm chair observers putting even more pressure on them, agreed the rules are bloody stupid, but that's the rules they have to try and work with Nothing to do who does or does not volunteer surely? Unless you're just trying to pick an argument because I'm voicing an opinion!!!! I had my 6 year son with me and he's not going to want to stand around all day observing at a section. IF I did observe I can truly say that I would be consistent. Anyway, as Dabster said I'd paid WELL over £300 for the weekend when you factor in fuel, hotel, sons tickets etc etc so have done my bit I feel for the British WTC round.. If you volunteer to observe at a world championship trial then kudos on you, its great that you can willingly give up your time and I applaud that. HOWEVER, regardless of what, how, why you are observing you MUST be consistent throughout.... In defence of the observer on section 3 and largely on section 8 they were on the whole consistent - too harsh IMO, but still consistent. The observer on section 4, whether he'd ever admit it or not was too scared to give Toni Bou a 5. He could NEVER argue he didn't see it EVER he was simply still way too long. He bottled giving a 5 to the world champion and championship leader. It wasn't even an area where you could say 'he was still hopping, trying to keep momentum' etc When Bou 5'd section 4 on the last lap on Sunday about 20 people shouted out "you know thats a 5 this time yea' or words to that effect. It is a shame that this is the situation we are in and it is a very hard situation inflicted on the observers by the clowns at the FIM running the sport that insist on running rules that are impossible to observe and that every rider hates. The only way you'll get the consistency is to have a team of observers that observe at every WTC round across the championship. And yes I'm aware that that does not help in 'keeping costs down' (which the afore mentioned clowns keep banging on about) however neither does running WTC events in Australia, Corsica etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phb Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Nothing to do who does or does not volunteer surely? Unless you're just trying to pick an argument because I'm voicing an opinion!!!! I had my 6 year son with me and he's not going to want to stand around all day observing at a section. IF I did observe I can truly say that I would be consistent. Anyway, as Dabster said I'd paid WELL over £300 for the weekend when you factor in fuel, hotel, sons tickets etc etc so have done my bit I feel for the British WTC round.. If you volunteer to observe at a world championship trial then kudos on you, its great that you can willingly give up your time and I applaud that. HOWEVER, regardless of what, how, why you are observing you MUST be consistent throughout.... In defence of the observer on section 3 and largely on section 8 they were on the whole consistent - too harsh IMO, but still consistent. The observer on section 4, whether he'd ever admit it or not was too scared to give Toni Bou a 5. He could NEVER argue he didn't see it EVER he was simply still way too long. He bottled giving a 5 to the world champion and championship leader. It wasn't even an area where you could say 'he was still hopping, trying to keep momentum' etc When Bou 5'd section 4 on the last lap on Sunday about 20 people shouted out "you know thats a 5 this time yea' or words to that effect. It is a shame that this is the situation we are in and it is a very hard situation inflicted on the observers by the clowns at the FIM running the sport that insist on running rules that are impossible to observe and that every rider hates. The only way you'll get the consistency is to have a team of observers that observe at every WTC round across the championship. And yes I'm aware that that does not help in 'keeping costs down' (which the afore mentioned clowns keep banging on about) however neither does running WTC events in Australia, Corsica etc not trying to be argumentative at all mate, far from it, I fully understand were you are coming from, believe me I wont ever observe at a WTC again until they drop the non-stop crap, I didn't observe at these rounds because of the rules, I have observed at the last 3 WTC at Hawkstone and the 2 rounds at Fort William and the pressure you are put under from the riders/minders and then the crowd is immense, the slating we got from armchair observers was unreal, I was subject to some real nasty crap from a idiot at Fort William for giving Michael Brown a 5 !!! Due to the stupid rule of touching a flag totally agree with the Bou situation, defo 5 and yes the Observer bottled it, but the Observers are all volunteers and I can hazard a good guess that no training beforehand was given other than the basic quick pep talk etc, Unfortunately observers are going to make mistakes at some point, and the constant p****** about with the rules by the FIM doesn't help, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Can a section be changed after the 1st lap ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naelie Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Can a section be changed after the 1st lap ? Yes in short. Oh, dinners on the table. But as long as all the entry in riding the section has finished the lap. This can happen at the end of each lap as it did on two sections I was at. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyoldfart Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 well said mucker Well yes, but at the risk of dragging this discussion too off-topic mags' comments do ring true with me. I also tend to get too involved in things and seem to end up being drafted onto committees populated predominantly by what SEEM TO ME to be people with less interested in what's best for the club/sport and more concerned about obsessing over minutae and hanging onto their dubious position of power. I fully accept that this is likely true of any amateur club and it's probably more an inditement of my own intolerance for petty politics and generally abraisive personality. Whatever, I've learned my lesson and stay well away from the organisational side of things these days. It's better all round that way. As for observing, trials isn't the only sport that's "observed" - look at figure skating for example, or skateboarding or FMX or many others. All of these sports' scoring systems rely on the observations of a panel of judges, the difference being that there's always multiple judges in order to counter the effect of one or more missing something and to minimise bias. If the FIM is to persist with their plan of completely destroying trials at the highest level using the no stop rules as their primary wrecking ball, how about 2 or 3 observers per section? If 2 out of 3 agree, that's the score. If all 3 disagree, take the median. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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