Dalesman Trials Restoration

[yam 22]

I'm still restoring my late model Dalesman trials (circa. 1973 - the one with the Sachs engine).

Does anyone have photos showing the original design of both the chainguard & the chain tensioner ...... or even better, have spare ones for sale?

Also trying to find front & rear black 'VF' mudguards.

Have attached the only good photo I've found of this model of trials bike but any others would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

[trialsrfun]

Good to learn of a Dalesman being restored, please keep us informed as to progress.

The VF black mudguards were made by John Macdonald of Vacuum Formers Macclesfield Cheshire. The black ones were I think the first type, later ones being a white/grey sort of colour which I have on a Bultaco, have not seen any new ones about for a long time though.

Best one to contact for VF information has to be Duncan Macdonald Armac Design

http://www.armac-design.com/Armac_Design/Triumph_Tiger_Cub_Trials.html

Edited August 15, 2014 by trialsrfun

[yam 22]

Many thanks for both your responses & leads.

My own Sachs engined model was built after Pete Edmondson's time at Dalesman as he'd already moved to Wassell. I did speak to him, could tell he only regarded his Puch engined models as true Dalesmans!

I have also written a brief history of his factory in Otley and Pete was kind enough to speak to me & give details. Was a really nice guy. Bill Brooker was also very helpful with information.

I'd offered my bike plus the history I'd written to the Otley museum but the curator said they weren't interested as ...... "they didn't have the space!" - so I'll just have to keep it myself.

Thanks again.

What is ORRe & where could I get a copy?

[yam 22]

Many thanks Deryk. I'd be more than happy to send you the draft text that I have already written about the history of Otley's Dalesman works. Not sure the best way to do this ...... whether using this website or by direct e-mail.

[yam 22]

Dalesman Motorcycles

Otley, Yorkshire.

Dalesman Motorcycles were manufactured in Otley, West Yorkshire from 1968 to 1974. Founded by Peter H. Edmondson (the father of four times World Enduro Champion rider Paul Edmondson), the Dalesman firm manufactured off-road motorcycles aimed mainly at the expanding American leisure market.

Peter Edmondson was born in Horsforth. West Yorkshire. Prior to starting production of his own range of motorcycles, he owned the ‘Otley Cycle & Motorcycle Depot’ shop on Boroughgate, Otley which sold bicycles and was also a dealership for Greeves & BSA motorcycles. He formed Dalesman Competition Ltd after selling the Boroughgate shop, and started production at 6 & 7 Ashfield Works, Beech Hill, Otley in 1968. By July 1969, the weekly newspaper ‘Motorcycle News’ published full page reviews of the new Dalesman and reported the first batch of 50 motorcycles had already been sold.

In 1969, the average retail price for a new Dalesman trials machine was £199. The Dalesman business was later to move to Phoenix Works, situated in the Old Chapel on Station Road.

Total production figures are not recorded but it is thought approximately 2000 motorcycles were manufactured over the six year period that Dalesman ran. Three quarters of these were exported to the United States via. the importer, Jeckel Industries. The remainder were sold to home and mainland European markets.

Dalesman made three types of motorcycle:

- a trials (the Belfast),

- a motocross (the Lynx),

- an enduro (the Scout).

The history of Dalesman could be split into two main phases:

Phase 1 - 1968 to 1972.

Phase 2 - 1972 to 1974.

Throughout the first phase, Edmondson used the Austrian built Puch 125 cc, four speed engine (though a 6 speed version was offered as an optional extra in all countries excluding America) with Puch hubs, Puch forks and metal mudguards.

During the second phase, Dalesman design switched to using the German built Sachs 125 cc 6 speed engine with REH (Robin E Humpheries) conical hubs, forks and plastic mudguards.

From the start, Dalesman motorcycles sponsored works riders (Terry Wright, Paul England & John Kendrew) and had competition successes;

- in 1969, three specially built Dalesmans (ridden by Ernie Page, Ian Millar & Scott Ellis) took part in the ISDT (International Six Day Trial) at Garnisch Partenkirchen, Bavaria,

- Terry Wright won the Manx Two day trails on a Dalesman,

- in 1972 Peter Gaunt won the Irish Experts Trial and came 6th.in the Scott Trial on a Dalesman,

- in 1973, the British Army team used Dalesmans in the American ISDT

Innovation took place at Dalesman; they were the first firm to develop and use front and rear disc brakes on an off road motorcycle. Manufactured by Talon Engineering these prototype disc brakes were first used on the 1972 Dalesman ISDT Works model and later, a refined version of the front disc brake was offered as an optional extra on their production motocross and enduro versions from 1973 onwards.

Fabrication of Dalesman component parts was subcontracted out to local manufacturers. The frames were originally made by Jim Lee (frame builder and the long term sponsor of Isle of Man TT winner Mick Grant ) at Birstall Smithies, Batley, using lightweight Reynolds 531 tubing with bronze welded joints. The machine workshops of Armley Prison, Leeds were used with inmates making exhaust systems for Dalesman and later, even taking over the manufacture of frames.

Although Dalesman sold motorcycles in kit form, the “part assembly” of each motorcycle took place in the Otley factory by a small work force whose produced figures varied from between 10 to 25 “kit motorcycles” per week.

The first phase of Dalesman history drew to a close in late 1972. Ron Jeckel of Jeckel Industries (the American importer of Edmondson’s motorcycles) had already bought into the Dalesman business. From once being sole owner, Peter Edmondson had become Managing Director. Jeckel wanted to increase production and in 1971 had brought in Bill Brooker (ex competition shop manager for Greeves Motorcycles) and appointed him joint Managing Director and Competitions manager. Peter Edmondson became Company Director but differences between Jeckel and Edmondson persisted, culminating in Peter Edmondson being voted off the board and him leaving Dalesman Competitions Ltd.

Peter Edmondson moved south to Lichfield and joined well known motorcycle parts manufacturer: Wassell. Owner Ted Wassell wanted to expand his parts business to whole motorcycle production and had already started manufacture of a “kit “ trials motorcycle that used a BSA Bantam engine.

Dalesman’s second phase was after Edmondson’s departure. Peter Gaunt joined as new Development Engineer and designed the new range of Dalesman motorcycles which used a 125 cc Sachs six speed engine with REH conical hubs, etc.

In 1973 the average retail price for a new Dalesman trials had risen from £199 to £299.

In Lichfield, Peter Edmondson was appointed as Wassell’s Development Engineer and Production line manager. Wassell also employed Jim Lee (the frame builder previously used by Dalesman) to manufacture the new Wassell frames. This range of Wassell trials and motocross models also used the same Sachs 125 cc 6 speed engine, REH conical hubs, etc, as were being used by Peter Gaunt at Dalesman. The motorcycles produced by both manufacturers began to closely resemble each other.

Alec Wright (Greeves rider) bought into Dalesman in 1974 and became Development Engineer but the firm would only last another 6 months.

These British made Dalesmans & Wassells were now generally regarded as not being as competitive as the designs produced by the increasingly dominant Spanish off road motorcycle manufacturers (Bultaco, Montesa & Ossa) in the mid 1970’s. In addition, the Japanese manufacturers (Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki & Yamaha) were also expanding into this off road motorcycle market and benefited from smaller labour costs as well as larger research and design budgets to those of Dalesman. Dalesman production finally ceasing towards the end of 1974 as American demand for the models dwindled. Wassell motorcycle production would only last another year.

Today, due to both their rarity and to the interest shown in these well made British motorcycles from enthusiasts especially in the United States, Dalesman motorcycles still remain sought after and as such, deserve a place in the history of British motorcycle production. Any examples of the marque that have survived forty or more years of off road use deserve preservation.

Edited August 31, 2014 by yam 22

[ttproducts]

I've got the very first of the Mk2 Dalesman trials bikes. The Mk1 frames had a long neck steering head, mine is the first of the newer frames (less prone to dropping to bits over bumps).

The story is Mr Phillips, who did the wheel building, mentioned to Pete that he wanted a bike. Pete's always up for a deal and he saw the chance of swapping a bike for some wheels. All the 'prototype' bits were cobbled together and Mr Phillips set off back to West Brom with a bike and no cash, VAT free of course.

Shortly after Mr Phillips passed away Tim Wassel was over at his old workshop collecting some stuff and he found the Dalesman. Tim handed over a wad of 20s, chucked it in the back of the van and called Pete when he got home. Pete went up to Tim's and bought it - maybe 18 months ago. As soon as Pete had it he found the need to sell it (anyone who knows him will know what I mean). Kath and Pete sort of adopted me way back and I see the bike as almost family so I rescued it before Pete took it to Rufforth and sold it as a field bike.

When Mr Phillips had the bike it was probably ridden a handful of hours and then got parked up - the lines are still on the knobbles on the tyres. The rest of the bike didn't last so well and it looks exactly like you'd expect after sitting in a shed for 40 years. Somewhere along the way it had REH forks and hub fitted - Pete says they may have been fitted originally but he's not too sure; he was way more interested in doing a deal than in what the production line fitted to a bike.

Pete keeps on at me for us to do some mods, make it better, how it should have been if he'd known then what he knows now. Move the shock mounts and footrests, fit some Rockshocks (and he's now even mentioned Duncan's new REH forks) and a few other bits. I'm not sure - do I keep it original or is it still original if Pete does the mods with me? Derrick wants to just restore it but as I paid for it and Pete made it there's a good chance Dek will be outvoted.

If/when I get round to doing it I'll put some bits on here - but don't anyone be holding their breath for me, this restoration malarky needs some serious thinking and tea drinking time.

[ruffmutt]

Re, Dalesman Belfast. I,ve just read yam22 s history on dalesman which I found fascinating because I owned 6speed model from 1971 to 1975, GWX 49 J. On Wednesday of this week, I managed to locate and buy the remains of this bike, how lucky is that?. The original puch engine is long gone, which is a good thing as it was a full time job fitting new gear clusters, very fragile, but the engine was brilliant. However, it,s getting a Villiers 9e4 unit fitted, not an easy job, lot of cutting involved to get the gearbox past the lower frame tube, but not as hard as the 1 I did last year using an 8e4. When I learn how to do it, I,ll post some pics.

[sparks2]

Hi Ruffmutt

Are you sure, what a co-incidence, my 6 speed Dalesman, owned from new (1970 to 1973) was GWX 31J.

How about that then.

Edited September 22, 2014 by sparks2

[treevor]

I've got the very first of the Mk2 Dalesman trials bikes. The Mk1 frames had a long neck steering head, mine is the first of the newer frames (less prone to dropping to bits over bumps).

The story is Mr Phillips, who did the wheel building, mentioned to Pete that he wanted a bike. Pete's always up for a deal and he saw the chance of swapping a bike for some wheels. All the 'prototype' bits were cobbled together and Mr Phillips set off back to West Brom with a bike and no cash, VAT free of course.

Shortly after Mr Phillips passed away Tim Wassel was over at his old workshop collecting some stuff and he found the Dalesman. Tim handed over a wad of 20s, chucked it in the back of the van and called Pete when he got home. Pete went up to Tim's and bought it - maybe 18 months ago. As soon as Pete had it he found the need to sell it (anyone who knows him will know what I mean). Kath and Pete sort of adopted me way back and I see the bike as almost family so I rescued it before Pete took it to Rufforth and sold it as a field bike.

When Mr Phillips had the bike it was probably ridden a handful of hours and then got parked up - the lines are still on the knobbles on the tyres. The rest of the bike didn't last so well and it looks exactly like you'd expect after sitting in a shed for 40 years. Somewhere along the way it had REH forks and hub fitted - Pete says they may have been fitted originally but he's not too sure; he was way more interested in doing a deal than in what the production line fitted to a bike.

Pete keeps on at me for us to do some mods, make it better, how it should have been if he'd known then what he knows now. Move the shock mounts and footrests, fit some Rockshocks (and he's now even mentioned Duncan's new REH forks) and a few other bits. I'm not sure - do I keep it original or is it still original if Pete does the mods with me? Derrick wants to just restore it but as I paid for it and Pete made it there's a good chance Dek will be outvoted.

If/when I get round to doing it I'll put some bits on here - but don't anyone be holding their breath for me, this restoration malarky needs some serious thinking and tea drinking time.

Tell Pete I have two of the early 4 speed Puch engined ones and all the panels to build one back to the original condition. The other I have started to mod (but nothing as yet that cannot be reverted) ie, flywheel weight, lowered and back footrests and a lighter rear hub. I got fed up of people telling me these were 'no good for trials so wanted to prove them wrong and so far it has made a vast improvement to the bike.

He is welcome to take the modded one to do as he wants but the bike will always be mine. He may remember me as Keith Knowles spannerman (he had Derricks 84 HondaGB 250, wish I knew where that bike was now) back in the eighties when Paul started his career (he in fact asked me to do the same for Paul which was a great honour) and we travelled together for two years.

I also would like to get involved and have some more ideas of my own and have plenty of time to put into the project when I am back in yhe UK, (I like to spend my summers in Croatia and was thinking of bringing the bikes out here to work on next year)

No worries if he isn't interested I will plod on on my own but just a thought.

Trevor Bennett

[jc2]

Pete keeps on at me for us to do some mods, make it better, how it should have been if he'd known then what he knows now. Move the shock mounts and footrests, fit some Rockshocks (and he's now even mentioned Duncan's new REH forks) and a few other bits. I'm not sure - do I keep it original or is it still original if Pete does the mods with me? Derrick wants to just restore it but as I paid for it and Pete made it there's a good chance Dek will be outvoted.

If/when I get round to doing it I'll put some bits on here - but don't anyone be holding their breath for me, this restoration malarky needs some serious thinking and tea drinking time.

Sounds to me like an offer too good to refuse. It'd be great to see what an updated/upgraded Dalesman (from the man himself) would look like.

[yam 22]

hi Deryk,

Would you know if this 'sleeping' Dalesman in the barn was an earlier model (with the Puch engine) or the later one (with Sach engine) ? Thanks

[mats]

I was delighted to see the picture of Pete Edmondson!

My first new bike was a Dalesman Scout Sachs 125cc.

 

I've been able (after years of searching) to find and restore 2 Dalesmans here in Sweden. I believe less than 20 were imported. 

 

  

[jay2]

absolutely fascinating read,ive just purchased a 1970 Dalesman which has a 1957 tiger cub engine in,it came with a puch engine and a spare barrel n piston,

I originally intend to put the puch engine back in but will no doubt will have to do some cutting and welding as its been modified for the cub engine.

ive the original logbook with all the previous owners on and last owner bought it in 1975

cant wait to get started

if anyone knows of any spares for the dalesman please feel free to comment or contact me

kr

jamie