axulsuv Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 As some of you know , I've been searching for a cyl. head to surge tank coolant hose for my 97 section for what seems forever ... Now after measuring the fittings I see I can make the hose out of small straight pieces of hose and some elbows ... My only worry is will I run into a corrosion issue between the Magnesium case's and copper fittings ? Or should I use some temperature / pressure suitable high quality pvc fittings ? I'm wondering about dissimilar metals reacting to each other . Does anybody have any insight ? Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob214 Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 not a metallurgist but as long as the metal pieces don't touch each other. not sure, i didn't find anything when i did internet search. is it possible to find aluminum fittings? or make fittings out of straight and weld to the proper angle? good luck rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mags Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 (edited) I'm not an expert in the field but can provide some info after playing in boats for 30 yrs! The more anodic (an anode) a metal is the more it sacrifices itself to a cathodic metal (cathode). Cathodes tend not to corrode but will. The classic case is aluminium sacrificing itself to stainless steel fasteners in an aluminium boat. The metal don't have to be touching for anode/cathode reaction, just have a liquid between them as is done on testing (flowing seawater). Magnesium is one the most anodic metals known (corrodes well if not protected). So if it is placed in proximity to differing types of metals it will be very anodic to less anodic depending on the metal type near it. I suggest you have a peek at a noble metal scale and see the the metals as far away in the scale from magnesium as you can. Things like stainless 316 are far away but even stainless has an issue when removing oxygen from contact with its surface (it corrodes as well albeit slower). Magnesium is so anodic I'd use it to protect other metals in a boat! Its not used because of cost! Low cost zinc is used mainly or aluminium sometimes, both are very close to magnesium on the noble metal scale. There is NO issue with plastics with galvanic corrosion but there is thermodynamic one... the closer to its molding temp the more it softens. Some of the nylons have a high temp resistance, well... enough to use as a cooling system joiner for two rubber hoses. If there is plenty of aluminium around the cooling system you could go ally but it is very anodic as well and very close to magnesium on the scale. The coolant may have properties to slow this down markedly though. Is it a super-weird shape and diameter that there is not a hose somewhere , off something else, for it? Or two that can be joined? Mags Edited August 31, 2014 by mags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axulsuv Posted August 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 It's a strange shaped hose with different ID's at the ends , and I've been to every bike shop and auto parts store around here seeing if something else would fit ... Here's a few photo's of it if any one has a idea ! I've found one for the tiny 180 degree hose I think copper elbows maybe my best bet , as the head end is about 3/4 ID and the surge tank/ top end is about 1/2 inch . I've found pvc and copper fittings that will do the transfer in a 90 degree fitting . Thanks again for the advice , I just want to use the Damn old bike ! It's got some serious oommpphh ... Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cascao Posted September 1, 2014 Report Share Posted September 1, 2014 just remember to use some hose to give a bit of flex to the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mags Posted September 1, 2014 Report Share Posted September 1, 2014 (edited) Glenn, It may be deceiving and not leave room for tank but it looks like you would almost get a straight piece of flexible heater hose in there? Come up out of head barb and straight up left side of fan motor and then across to rad barb??? Zip it to fan strut to keep it low? Also.... try jet skis and their shops they have some hoses that turn all sorts of directions, especially on the fourstroke yammys?? Mags Edited September 1, 2014 by mags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mags Posted September 1, 2014 Report Share Posted September 1, 2014 Some of the car silicone hoses are pretty flexible and should do the job??? Mags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feetupfun Posted September 1, 2014 Report Share Posted September 1, 2014 HDPE is rated for continuous 110degrees C and 120 degrees for short periods. Hose fittings are readily available. It is called black poly here and is commonly used for irrigation and mains pressure water plumbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob214 Posted September 1, 2014 Report Share Posted September 1, 2014 glenn what bike is that? thanks for the info mags. rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axulsuv Posted September 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2014 Rob , it's a 1997 Fantic section Mags , Straight hose won't work , No room , But 3 straight pieces and 2 90degree elbows will . With the elbow at the head going from 3/4 to 1/2 . Feetup , HDPE fittings may be a better option than the copper for this application as the copper fittings I've run across all have soldered joints and I think the HDPE fittings may take the vibration better , and the cooling fan comes on when the head temp reaches about 175-180 F. and with a 14psi rad cap Pressure shouldn't be a issue , as most pieces I've seen are rated for 175-200 psi @ temp . Thanks for the input , and boosting my confidence in following thru with my plan .... Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffsgasgas Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 (edited) Do your drain plugs have copper washers? If so whats the corrosion there? Is there corrosion where your magnesium case meets the frame? If so you can still fix this but that will be your answer. Dissimilar metal isn't as much of an issue as electron flow and the reason behind it. Here is your science lesson: Corrosion really occurs when the cathode and the anode have a path of electron flow and two metals in contact can attempt to transfer electrons. In the presence of oxygen that will cause corrosion. Your coolant shouldn't be an electrical path and when it is electrolysis will occur. If your coolant is used as electrical path it will form electrolysis. If you introduce electrolysis with oxygen you get either an alkaline or an acid which can then turn into corrosion. BAD! Here is your scientific test with a real world example: If your concerned here's a tip. In that silly blue semi round shape company that I might or might not work for we do this . The customer symptom may be: Repeat heater core failure, repeat radiator failure, block corrosion at the pump, or any coolant system corrosion. If you have this issue on any make of car or bike please read on. There is a solution to this and knowing whats broken will help fix this. Ahemmmm COPE you might learn something here! (knowing his career to date). Background: Root cause is that the engine generally does not have an electrical path to ground. Spark plugs, generators, static all needs a path to ground. Most automobiles need a ground strap to the engine to create a ground path because their drive-train is isolated to ground by dampeners. The advantage of our trials bikes is that they are directly connected to ground aka the frame of the bike. Very rarely is the engine not connected to the frame which is the ultimate ground of our bikes. If your engine is insulated from the frame then the coolant may be the path of least resistance to ground. If electricity is pushed through the coolant then it will cause a problem. What do I do to see if my coolant is being used as a ground path??? Easy! Grab a DVOM and put your positive (red lead) in the coolant and connect your negative (black lead) to the frame with the engine off. If you see more than a volt you have a problem! Drain your coolant this minute because it has become a battery and that will cause corrosion. If you don't have a volt then start your bike and look at the voltage. If it raises more than a half a volt when the engine starts then shut her down because you know that your coolant is being used as a ground path and your coolant will basically be turned into a battery source promoting corrosion. So I have voltage what do I do? MORE grounds the merrier. You can't have enough grounds. Put a ground from your engine block to the coil and frame and your mother in law, what ever it takes to get rid of your stray voltage. Automotive applications suffer more than our bikes due to people not lifting the hood and knowing that that small ground strap to the engine has left and now your heater core or radiator is the path back to the battery. Use coolant which helps inhibit not only electrolysis but also freezing. It also lubricates your spinning parts such as the water pump. Ohms law is universal. If you have any vehicle in your life that has had a failure of the coolant system make sure you check the voltage in the coolant after the repair. If you have ever replaced a heater core or radiator for damage just check to see how much voltage is passing through the coolant to the battery. What about dissimilar metal corrosion? Sure two metals of different types can corrode with electron transfer in direct contact. Your coolant hose idea isn't direct contact. Electron flow in coolant systems is usually because its forced electron transfer such as a bad ground causing the coolant to be the ground path. --Biff PS. Very few women will find this information attractive. Edited September 3, 2014 by biffsgasgas 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axulsuv Posted September 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 And I forgot the S 10 heater core .... Goverment Motors had the issue too ... Thanks for the refresher Biff ! Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 Do your drain plugs have copper washers? If so whats the corrosion there? Is there corrosion where your magnesium case meets the frame? If so you can still fix this but that will be your answer. Dissimilar metal isn't as much of an issue as electron flow and the reason behind it. Here is your science lesson: Corrosion really occurs when the cathode and the anode have a path of electron flow and two metals in contact can attempt to transfer electrons. In the presence of oxygen that will cause corrosion. Your coolant shouldn't be an electrical path and when it is electrolysis will occur. If your coolant is used as electrical path it will form electrolysis. If you introduce electrolysis with oxygen you get either an alkaline or an acid which can then turn into corrosion. BAD! Here is your scientific test with a real world example: If your concerned here's a tip. In that silly blue semi round shape company that I might or might not work for we do this . The customer symptom may be: Repeat heater core failure, repeat radiator failure, block corrosion at the pump, or any coolant system corrosion. If you have this issue on any make of car or bike please read on. There is a solution to this and knowing whats broken will help fix this. Ahemmmm COPE you might learn something here! (knowing his career to date). Background: Root cause is that the engine generally does not have an electrical path to ground. Spark plugs, generators, static all needs a path to ground. Most automobiles need a ground strap to the engine to create a ground path because their drive-train is isolated to ground by dampeners. The advantage of our trials bikes is that they are directly connected to ground aka the frame of the bike. Very rarely is the engine not connected to the frame which is the ultimate ground of our bikes. If your engine is insulated from the frame then the coolant may be the path of least resistance to ground. If electricity is pushed through the coolant then it will cause a problem. What do I do to see if my coolant is being used as a ground path??? Easy! Grab a DVOM and put your positive (red lead) in the coolant and connect your negative (black lead) to the frame with the engine off. If you see more than a volt you have a problem! Drain your coolant this minute because it has become a battery and that will cause corrosion. If you don't have a volt then start your bike and look at the voltage. If it raises more than a half a volt when the engine starts then shut her down because you know that your coolant is being used as a ground path and your coolant will basically be turned into a battery source promoting corrosion. So I have voltage what do I do? MORE grounds the merrier. You can't have enough grounds. Put a ground from your engine block to the coil and frame and your mother in law, what ever it takes to get rid of your stray voltage. Automotive applications suffer more than our bikes due to people not lifting the hood and knowing that that small ground strap to the engine has left and now your heater core or radiator is the path back to the battery. Use coolant which helps inhibit not only electrolysis but also freezing. It also lubricates your spinning parts such as the water pump. Ohms law is universal. If you have any vehicle in your life that has had a failure of the coolant system make sure you check the voltage in the coolant after the repair. If you have ever replaced a heater core or radiator for damage just check to see how much voltage is passing through the coolant to the battery. What about dissimilar metal corrosion? Sure two metals of different types can corrode with electron transfer in direct contact. Your coolant hose idea isn't direct contact. Electron flow in coolant systems is usually because its forced electron transfer such as a bad ground causing the coolant to be the ground path. --Biff PS. Very few women will find this information attractive. That is a good brief on the electrolysis thing, Biff! All very true! I have dealt with these things in the past. The really bad ones were the ones that you could detect NO stray voltages! Anywhere! Ground everything and it still occurs! Yet keep seeing coolant ph swing to Alk! Where is this coming from! Must be internal, somewhere. All these were dissimilar metal motors(ali head/ steel block). One of these was my wifes blue oval thing with no prior repair history, no other issues! I developed an unconventional fix for this that has worked! Yet I cannot fully explain exactly why or what the root cause is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyt Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 "One of these was my wifes blue oval thing with no prior repair history, no other issues!" Now that is funny, most riders wife’s have PINK oval thingy. With or without a prior husband as part of the repair history. Must be a Hank Hill thing! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffsgasgas Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 That is a good brief on the electrolysis thing, Biff! All very true! I have dealt with these things in the past. The really bad ones were the ones that you could detect NO stray voltages! Anywhere! Ground everything and it still occurs! Yet keep seeing coolant ph swing to Alk! Where is this coming from! Must be internal, somewhere. All these were dissimilar metal motors(ali head/ steel block). One of these was my wifes blue oval thing with no prior repair history, no other issues! I developed an unconventional fix for this that has worked! Yet I cannot fully explain exactly why or what the root cause is. HA! Shame on me... You knew that all ready. Four more things that we have seen cause electrolysis. Block heaters (Not really a motorcycle problem. Look for voltage when plugged in to the wall) Water pump (Can sometimes be isolated by removing the belt. Usually does not have a surge of voltage when started but voltage can slowly build) Serp belt (not really a motorcycle problem. Be removed for a short while) Electric thermostats (What a horrible idea that was. You can usually see a voltage spike in the coolant when cold or activated and it goes away when unplugged or the system turns off the voltage) --Biff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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