peterh Posted September 17, 2014 Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) At a recent trial, I was observer for a stop allowed trial. For the A Grade (or expert) riders on one section they had to come in at a right angle to the end of a large log (about 1.5m high), hop the back wheel around and/or hop the front around so they were then directly in line with the end of the log prior to a splat top get on top. The space was tight such that there was a bike length +300mm between the boundary tape and the log. In positioning the rear wheel and without rolling backwards the white tape got caught on the tyre and as the rider was positioning and inching forward the tape moved with the wheel up and eventually the tape was such that it was now in front of the rear axle. The tape had not broken, which would have been a five. As the tape was now in front of the rear axle, in essence it looked like the rear wheel was half out of the line of the section, if in fact the tape defined the boundary. I called a five at that stage based on the premise that the boundary tape was in front of the rear axle and thus the rear wheel had crossed over the boundary created by the tape. The rider while balancing was trying to dislodge the tape with his foot. As I had called five, the rider claimed that as long as he did not break the tape he was allowed to dislodge the tape - fair enough, but the tape defining the boundary was now in front of the rear axle. Was I correct in calling a five? Edited September 17, 2014 by peterh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motovita Posted September 17, 2014 Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 I can't really picture your scenario. Generally if the tire is not clearly outside the ribbon, and on the ground, the bike is in bounds. Did the tape require resetting after the ride? If so I'd definitely call it a five, but check with the Trial marshal or club officers for your locality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottj Posted September 17, 2014 Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 I've seen this happen several times. If it isn't addressed in the rule book as a failure, it is not a failure. My guess is that it is not addressed in the rule book, so you have to let it go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_t Posted September 17, 2014 Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 Sounds like the tape might have been set a bit high if the wheel was able to get under it and pull it forward (should be between 10 and 30 cm high). I think I would say the boundary moved to the other side of the axle, not that the axle moved on the other side of the boundary given the bike did not go backwards during any of this. Certainly a tough call and it could go either way, hopefully the rider respected your call at the time but I'm a softy and think I would have let it go as long as the tape didn't break. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thats_a_five Posted September 17, 2014 Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 IMHO that was not a five. Particularly because you said the rider was balanced and attempting to remove the ribbon with his foot. If he had been using his hand (off the bars) it could have been a different story. Two things you might have done. 1) Wait longer before calling the five. If the tape broke or had to be reset, then it is clearly a five. 2) Let the rider finish the section (assuming the tape did not break) and suggest that both you and the rider discuss this with the Trials Marshall at the end of the trial for determination. That way, if it is decided to not be a five, then you have a legitimate score for the rider for that section. I had a situation a while ago with a questionable five and did not call it immediately. Farther in the section the rider had a clear five so the questionable five did not have any bearing on his final score anyway. I don't know about Australia rules, but in USA, generally it is encouraged to give the rider the "benefit of doubt" for questionable calls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted September 17, 2014 Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) A difficult decision, and I have not voted. As an observer I, at times get tired of repeatedly climbing down into a section to replace flags that have been dislodged by a rider. If riders push their luck by riding too close to markers, then they will just have to accept a decision they don't agree with when they get a five. From your description it sounds as if the problem led from the rider was pushing the tape with his rear wheel, it then snagged on the tread blocks and pulled forwards over the top of the wheel. In initially pushing the tape back or sideways with his wheel the rider was trying to gain the advantage of a better run at the log and therefore from a purely sporting viewpoint probably deserved a five. I can't remember the exact wording I have seen either in ACU regs or possibly an observer guide at a trial, but it said that displacing a marker is a 5, unfortunately it does not say if the displacement has to be temporary or permanent. I feel you called a 5 prematurely, I would have waited until the rider had completed before deciding. Many times I have been spared a difficult decision when the rider puts it beyond doubt by fiving further along the section. If the rider had managed to unsnag the tape with his foot and without it breaking and it naturally sprung back to its original position I probably would not have given a five. Edited September 17, 2014 by dadof2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony27 Posted September 17, 2014 Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 Depending on how high the tape had been set then yes you were a bit hard, the bike hadn't moved outside the tape, the tape moved into the section. If the tape had broken then a 5 is called for. To minimize this happening we generally have the tape as close to the ground as possible & as tight as possible to prevent the wind changing the section boundary as the rider is riding the section 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mags Posted September 17, 2014 Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 Motorcycling Australia 2014 Manual of Motorcycle Sport - 23. Trial states... The machine crosses a boundary with either wheel, that wheel being on the ground - 5 points It doesn't say "any" part of the wheel, just says wheel, so thats the whole whole wheel has to cross? Doesn't say tyre? It also states... Argue with an Official - 10 points. Geez! I'm not gonna even look at them sideways! Mags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beta Posted September 17, 2014 Report Share Posted September 17, 2014 Observer's word is final. you win some you lose some. without Observers we would not be able to ride. thank you to everyone of you that does so, it is much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slicktop Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 (edited) Chalk lines would remove all doubt and be much easier to score for those observing. But I feel if the rule rules allow stretching the tape, Then stretch it if you dare. If it doesn't break or have to be repositioned then you are clean and Lucky. Edited September 18, 2014 by slicktop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axulsuv Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 As long as the tape doesn't break or need to be reset .............. I learned that stretching is allowed .... But I use surveyors paint when laying out sections ... no doubt if you crossed the line .... And it dissapears with the next good rain . Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thats_a_five Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 Motorcycling Australia 2014 Manual of Motorcycle Sport - 23. Trial states... The machine crosses a boundary with either wheel, that wheel being on the ground - 5 points It doesn't say "any" part of the wheel, just says wheel, so thats the whole whole wheel has to cross? Doesn't say tyre? It also states... Argue with an Official - 10 points. Geez! I'm not gonna even look at them sideways! Mags The interpretation I have heard is (I am in USA, don't knowabout Australia) it is OK to ride on the ribbon, but if there is space between the tire and the ribbon (tire outside the ribbon) it is a five. I agree completely with the rule of penalty points for arguing with an official. Not because they are never wrong, but because officials are usually volunteers. A quick story: I went to spectate a trial at a different club. They did not have enough observers so I volunteered to help even though I would much rather have been free to spectate at multiple sections. I positioned myself away from the end of the section for better sight lines. One rider took the wrong line and I gave him a five. He turned and rode directly toward me at high speed, shouting at me. I was honestly concerned for my safety and what other actions he might take. He did stop without hitting me and it just happened that the Trials Marshall happened to ride up. He got a good yelling also from the rider. He got his score and rode off. At the end of the trial he got no penalty points. I have observed many trials, before and after, but never again for that club. And never will. Moral of the story: Don't p*** off volunteers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breagh Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 Here's a thing at most trials up here you will find the same observers time and time again. I would suggest it is in the riders interest to take any hard decisions on the chin rather than question the observer Upsetting an observer could cost you a lot of marks over a season or longer. I know one observer who fived a rider every time regardless of his score after an incident. The riders now retired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axulsuv Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 The interpretation I have heard is (I am in USA, don't knowabout Australia) it is OK to ride on the ribbon, but if there is space between the tire and the ribbon (tire outside the ribbon) it is a five. I agree completely with the rule of penalty points for arguing with an official. Not because they are never wrong, but because officials are usually volunteers. A quick story: I went to spectate a trial at a different club. They did not have enough observers so I volunteered to help even though I would much rather have been free to spectate at multiple sections. I positioned myself away from the end of the section for better sight lines. One rider took the wrong line and I gave him a five. He turned and rode directly toward me at high speed, shouting at me. I was honestly concerned for my safety and what other actions he might take. He did stop without hitting me and it just happened that the Trials Marshall happened to ride up. He got a good yelling also from the rider. He got his score and rode off. At the end of the trial he got no penalty points. I have observed many trials, before and after, but never again for that club. And never will. Moral of the story: Don't p*** off volunteers. Hummnn ...I believe under ITSA rules , that rider would've been asked to leave , And don't bother coming back .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterh Posted September 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 Thanks for all the replies and information and vote. It is always interesting to hear of interpretations and deliberations and I agree we do not want the rules to expand further and further to cover every possibility and perhaps as suggested if it is not in the rules then all is okay. Yes, it was a judgement call, and dadof2 described the way the boundary tape (positioned at 30cm off the ground and not loose) caught on the tread blocks and brought the now stretched boundary tape forward over the top of the wheel/tyre so it now essentially ran across the swingarm and forward of the rear axle - and michael-t's perspective was what was going through my mind as I watched the tape progressively be pulled up and over the rear wheel. I felt I had to make a decision rather than wait and see or hope that the rider broke the tape or failed the splat jump or failed somewhere else in the section, so I did not have to worry about my confusion with regard the tape being pulled forward of the rear axle - note that the event was a Championship event. What transpired was that the rider queried (without anger or challenge, but more surprise) the decision and explained his perspective and as there was confusion and maybe I was hasty and maybe the rider may have broken the tape as he cleared it, I decided that in the circumstance I had potentially prevented him making a bona-fide attempt due to my confusion or haste and I called a baulk and allowed a re-run taking into account marks lost prior to that point of baulk and the section observed from the point of the "baulk". I let the Clerk of Course know of the incident and all is happy and good. As a note, the rider did not clean the section thus there was also no advantage to the rider by calling the baulk. And the rider and I will ride together another day. None of us are perfect. Thanks all for your contributions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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