Water In Gearbox And Other Problems

[hrmad]

Hi,

I've just bought a Beta Rev 3 200cc 06 last week.

I've done the clutch mod to the bike (filing down of the glue).

The gearbox oil was white, I thought water had leaked in through the clutch case o ring which was too large upon inspection (which I cut down and attached on with some silicon). I have since changed the oil 3 times, the oil got clearer each time, but the sight glass on the side still got cloudy running her with the last batch of oil.

I thought the coolant might be leaking in (people on the site have told me about the magnesium casing corroding/ water pump seal problems). But the coolant level hasn't gone down much since being filled. There don't seem to be any oil leaks or cracks either.

I put her into first gear tonight with the clutch pulled in and she lept forward and stalled.

She's also quite difficult to kick over.

I just want to get the bike running really well and maintain it for good use, and hopefully not have any disasters during a trial.

So any help would be appreciated, I have limited mechanical skill too...

[totalshell]

its a beta.. if you dont run it virtually every day even with the clutch mods it will very often stick on start up. the only way around this is to start it out of gear point it away from anything solid and change into first the bike will pull away ride round for a couple of minutes and it ll free off and will be no more bother all day. the next day it will do exactly the same.

keep putting new oil in warm it up use it drain and refill this will eventually get rid of all the water/cloudyness the window may be cloudy forever.. no need to use an expensive oil till its clear.

[heffergm]

Since doing the clutch mod I don't have any lurching issues:

- start the bike and let it warm up for a minute or two, at least until it idles on its own without the choke on

- hop on, pull in the clutch, give it a few revs. Keep the clutch pulling in for 10 or 20 seconds

- click the bike up into second gear

Aside from filing the glue off, did you bevel and sand the tabs on the plates?

As for the milky gearbox, it's moisture, the question is just where is it coming from. You said the coolant level 'hasn't gone down much' since filling. It shouldn't have gone down at all, so that might be the problem. Doesn't take much coolant in the oil to turn it into soup.

But if the coolant level stabilizes and a few more oil changes don't take care of it, not sure.

[naichuff]

Had Similar problem with an 03 It is caused by the hot cold cycle when the engine is run in streams cooling the cases and wet air being sucked in the breather over time Mine had a white film of gunge in the box That is not to say porous cases or pump seal leaking but you will be loosing coolant

[huski]

Before you start it engage 5th gear pull clutch in and sit astride and rock it backwards ,you'll feel the cluch free Put it back in neutral and start it it won't jump forward Its kinder to the gearbox this way

[dadof2]

Beta clutch's seem to be variable between bikes no matter what you do to them.

Many bikes suffer from clutch sticking when parked for a while. When cold I always start them in neutral, Then roll the bike forwards at a fast walking pace and low revs whilst easing them into first gear, then blip the throttle a few times with the clutch lever against the bars and it usually clears it almost immediately.

I once left a 900 Honda parked over winter and had to drive about 2 miles doing this before the clutch freed.

[hrmad]

its a beta.. if you dont run it virtually every day even with the clutch mods it will very often stick on start up. the only way around this is to start it out of gear point it away from anything solid and change into first the bike will pull away ride round for a couple of minutes and it ll free off and will be no more bother all day. the next day it will do exactly the same.

keep putting new oil in warm it up use it drain and refill this will eventually get rid of all the water/cloudyness the window may be cloudy forever.. no need to use an expensive oil till its clear

Thanks for the advice. Running the bike in gear every day is not really an option because of where I live (no MOT for the road). I am planning to travel to a friend's farm at least three days a week for practice though.

The cloudyness in the window has gone now she's not running, the oil looks much better. I'll check the coolant level in the morning and double check for any leaks.

Since doing the clutch mod I don't have any lurching issues:

- start the bike and let it warm up for a minute or two, at least until it idles on its own without the choke on

- hop on, pull in the clutch, give it a few revs. Keep the clutch pulling in for 10 or 20 seconds

- click the bike up into second gear

Aside from filing the glue off, did you bevel and sand the tabs on the plates?

As for the milky gearbox, it's moisture, the question is just where is it coming from. You said the coolant level 'hasn't gone down much' since filling. It shouldn't have gone down at all, so that might be the problem. Doesn't take much coolant in the oil to turn it into soup.

But if the coolant level stabilizes and a few more oil changes don't take care of it, not sure.

Thanks for the advice. Spent about 2 and 1/2 hours filing the glue off but no, I didn't bevel and sand the tabs, maybe that's the problem. I'll change the oil again within the month and watch the coolant level.

Had Similar problem with an 03 It is caused by the hot cold cycle when the engine is run in streams cooling the cases and wet air being sucked in the breather over time Mine had a white film of gunge in the box That is not to say porous cases or pump seal leaking but you will be loosing coolant

A white film around the edges of the sight glass is about right, but it has improved with the oil changes. Hopefully it isn't porous cases or the pump seal leaking.

Before you start it engage 5th gear pull clutch in and sit astride and rock it backwards ,you'll feel the cluch free Put it back in neutral and start it it won't jump forward Its kinder to the gearbox this way

Thanks, I'll give this a go

Beta clutch's seem to be variable between bikes no matter what you do to them.

Many bikes suffer from clutch sticking when parked for a while. When cold I always start them in neutral, Then roll the bike forwards at a fast walking pace and low revs whilst easing them into first gear, then blip the throttle a few times with the clutch lever against the bars and it usually clears it almost immediately.

I once left a 900 Honda parked over winter and had to drive about 2 miles doing this before the clutch freed.

2 miles is a long way! I think the previous owner hasn't used the beta for a while, plus power washed it down too. Bolts are tight as hell! The whole bike needs going through and greasing, which is what I'm planning to do over time. Not to mention they put the wrong spark plug in! If I never see a damned allen key again I'll be happy, haha!

Edited September 23, 2014 by hrmad

[thats_a_five]

If you are not loosing coolant and the oil continues to get milky, check the crankcase breather. Water can be sucked in during stream crossings because of the temperature change. It's good to have a length of hose on the breather to minimize this. Running the hose up high or even into the airbox is best to keep water out.

[hrmad]

If you are not loosing coolant and the oil continues to get milky, check the crankcase breather. Water can be sucked in during stream crossings because of the temperature change. It's good to have a length of hose on the breather to minimize this. Running the hose up high or even into the airbox is best to keep water out.

I'm going to check the coolant level tomorrow, as the oil became milky again today. It does seem a little silly where the crankcase breather is on a bike of this type, I'll take your advice, thanks.

If it is the coolant, is it most likely the water pump housing that the leak is coming from? If so, does anyone have a link to how to fix the problem or know which parts to get before taking anything off the bike?

Aside from the clutch and gears issue (which goes away when she's warm) the bike has good compression and runs well. I just want to sort the problems that are there, I don't want to put the cold drag issues down to 'it's a beta, what do you expect?' It can be improved i'm sure

[thats_a_five]

The water in the gearbox will make the clutch drag badly.

Sorry, I don't have Beta knowledge. Common way for coolant to get into gearbox on other brands is leaking or failed water pump seal. If you disassemble the pump, check the impellor shaft closely for wear. If it has a groove from the seal, it should be replaced or the new seal will not fully seal. Remember to install the seal in the direction so water pressure will squeeze the seal tighter on the shaft, not the other way round.

[hrmad]

The water in the gearbox will make the clutch drag badly.

Sorry, I don't have Beta knowledge. Common way for coolant to get into gearbox on other brands is leaking or failed water pump seal. If you disassemble the pump, check the impellor shaft closely for wear. If it has a groove from the seal, it should be replaced or the new seal will not fully seal. Remember to install the seal in the direction so water pressure will squeeze the seal tighter on the shaft, not the other way round.

Thanks for the advice.

This is how the oil is looking today,

Should I just keep changing the oil to see if it clears? The oil level had come down too and I had to top it up. Coolant had gone down by about a quarter of an inch since last week.

[worldtrialchamp]

Hi HRMAD

It does appear to be coolant or water in your oil. It can get in in one of three or four ways:

1. Past that o ring you've silicone up (replace it)

2. Past the waterpump shaft seal

3. Ingressed through the breather hose

4. Ingressed through a broken or poorly sealing inner clutch cover gasket (especially around the kick start area or where the aluminium protection plate pad meets the casing at the base)

If coolant/water has got inside, it can also coagulate and remain inside the gearbox (after you've rectified the source) caught up inside on one of the internal castings as a blob or it could just be caught in the sight glass.

Given the age of the bike, I'd suggest you replace the waterpump seal anyway and expect the shaft may also be grooved. Considering your description, I'd recommend removal of the inner clutch housing to inspect inside. Do this as you'll be able to:

1. Replace waterpump seal and shaft if required and eliminate that as the source

2. Flush out the gearcasing with some solvent if required (I use white spirit, fill it up, slosh it around, drain it, fill it up, slosh it around, drain it, remove cover and let the gearbox air dry) to remove any trapped coagulated coolant

3. Inspect and measure your clutch plates both drive and driven. I acknowledge the clutch mod posted on here, but in my experience I have found better results by replacing the clutch friction plates (especially if they have been exposed to water/coolant) and having the steel plates linished perfectly flat (ask a machine shop). Even a worn clutch friction plate that is within thickness specs (2.5-3.0mm) affects the operation of the clutch. Eg, if your plates are all 2.7mm thick, that's .3mm x 6 plates = 1.8mm wear across the clutch pack. Doesn't sound much and in theory the self adjusting clutch mechanism compensates for this but in reality the action does change. Plates that have been exposed to coolant will continue to make the bike lurch when cold.

Another technique that works well is to start bike when cold, and use an elastic band to hold the clutch lever in. By the time you've warmed the bike, the clutch usually doesn't grab. Again, this doesn't work when the plates have been exposed to coolant/water.

Finally, choice of gearbox oil makes a big difference. There are many choices. I did a lot of testing with various brands, comparing the feel they provided with the amount of metal filings on the magnet at each change. I ended up using Silkolene light gear oil in all my Betas. Its a compromise between sufficient gearbox protection and good clutch action.

This is just my experience, you may find others here offer other alternatives. None of them are right or wrong. Its just trial and error.

btw, you shouldn't have any issue with corrosion on your bike, as the 200cc models, as far as I can tell from the part numbers, may have all had aluminium cases. It was the magnesium case that corroded. Won't hurt to check though whilst you have it apart (again).

http://static.wpe.au.syrahost.com/var/m_2/2f/2fe/4880/69803-Rev3_Waterpump_Corrosion_.pdf?download

http://www.trials.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4635

Edited September 27, 2014 by worldtrialchamp

[thats_a_five]

The oil does look milky. That usually indicates water in the oil. If you had just been running the engine it can look a bit milky because there are many tiny air bubbles in the oil. Let it rest for an hour or so, then check again. If it is still milky it is probably water.

You never get 100% of the oil out when draining. Most manuals say to drain the oil when it is hot do get a more complete drain. Be careful to not burn yourself. So when you refill you have a little old oil and mostly new oil. If it has water in the old oil it will cause the new oil to look slightly milky after it mixes during running. Usually 2 changes of oil should remove the old oil enough that it does not look milky. If it gets milky again after that, there is new water getting in somehow. (I just reread your original post and it sounds like it is getting milky after oil change so it probably is getting new water in). The slight loss of coolant water would support that idea.

Usually the oil should be half way up the sight glass so it looks like you have too much oil in there. The bike should be level when checking, not leaning like resting on the side stand. Too much oil can cause some clutch drag also.

It is rare that the oil level would go down unless it is leaking out somewhere. Do you see any puddle of oil under the bike?

I suspect the water pump seal is leaking and needs to be replaced. It is not a hard job to do but do need to pry out the old one so it might be a good idea to have someone else with experience help you.

**

You also mention that the bike is hard to kick. The very short kick lever on trials bikes makes then hard to kick so it is usually best to take the bike out of gear when kicking. Not a bad idea anyway if you have a sticking clutch so the bike does not take off when it starts. Even in neutral I always make sure to hold the clutch in and the front brake on when kicking.

[jfc]

Silkolene light gear oil every time ++++++

[hrmad]

Hi HRMAD

It does appear to be coolant or water in your oil. It can get in in one of three or four ways:

1. Past that o ring you've silicone up (replace it)

2. Past the waterpump shaft seal

3. Ingressed through the breather hose

4. Ingressed through a broken or poorly sealing inner clutch cover gasket (especially around the kick start area or where the aluminium protection plate pad meets the casing at the base)

If coolant/water has got inside, it can also coagulate and remain inside the gearbox (after you've rectified the source) caught up inside on one of the internal castings as a blob or it could just be caught in the sight glass.

Given the age of the bike, I'd suggest you replace the waterpump seal anyway and expect the shaft may also be grooved. Considering your description, I'd recommend removal of the inner clutch housing to inspect inside. Do this as you'll be able to:

1. Replace waterpump seal and shaft if required and eliminate that as the source

2. Flush out the gearcasing with some solvent if required (I use white spirit, fill it up, slosh it around, drain it, fill it up, slosh it around, drain it, remove cover and let the gearbox air dry) to remove any trapped coagulated coolant

3. Inspect and measure your clutch plates both drive and driven. I acknowledge the clutch mod posted on here, but in my experience I have found better results by replacing the clutch friction plates (especially if they have been exposed to water/coolant) and having the steel plates linished perfectly flat (ask a machine shop). Even a worn clutch friction plate that is within thickness specs (2.5-3.0mm) affects the operation of the clutch. Eg, if your plates are all 2.7mm thick, that's .3mm x 6 plates = 1.8mm wear across the clutch pack. Doesn't sound much and in theory the self adjusting clutch mechanism compensates for this but in reality the action does change. Plates that have been exposed to coolant will continue to make the bike lurch when cold.

Another technique that works well is to start bike when cold, and use an elastic band to hold the clutch lever in. By the time you've warmed the bike, the clutch usually doesn't grab. Again, this doesn't work when the plates have been exposed to coolant/water.

Finally, choice of gearbox oil makes a big difference. There are many choices. I did a lot of testing with various brands, comparing the feel they provided with the amount of metal filings on the magnet at each change. I ended up using Silkolene light gear oil in all my Betas. Its a compromise between sufficient gearbox protection and good clutch action.

This is just my experience, you may find others here offer other alternatives. None of them are right or wrong. Its just trial and error.

btw, you shouldn't have any issue with corrosion on your bike, as the 200cc models, as far as I can tell from the part numbers, may have all had aluminium cases. It was the magnesium case that corroded. Won't hurt to check though whilst you have it apart (again).

http://static.wpe.au.syrahost.com/var/m_2/2f/2fe/4880/69803-Rev3_Waterpump_Corrosion_.pdf?download

http://www.trials.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4635

Thanks for the reply, I really appreciate it I wish I had been more careful and had noticed the oil was white in the gearbox before buying! Never mind, it is fixable so it's not so bad.

Seems like it would pay to be thorough, I'll get a new clutch case o ring, inner clutch cover gasket, water pump shaft seal and the shaft. The links were very helpful, especially the article with the pictures, that's made things clearer. The steel plates in the clutch were showing signs of corrosion, so I need to get these filed smooth and some new clutch friction plates?

I can afford the parts but not the labour costs of a mechanic. I can do basic stuff, how much trouble can I get into with this job?

The oil does look milky. That usually indicates water in the oil. If you had just been running the engine it can look a bit milky because there are many tiny air bubbles in the oil. Let it rest for an hour or so, then check again. If it is still milky it is probably water.

You never get 100% of the oil out when draining. Most manuals say to drain the oil when it is hot do get a more complete drain. Be careful to not burn yourself. So when you refill you have a little old oil and mostly new oil. If it has water in the old oil it will cause the new oil to look slightly milky after it mixes during running. Usually 2 changes of oil should remove the old oil enough that it does not look milky. If it gets milky again after that, there is new water getting in somehow. (I just reread your original post and it sounds like it is getting milky after oil change so it probably is getting new water in). The slight loss of coolant water would support that idea.

Usually the oil should be half way up the sight glass so it looks like you have too much oil in there. The bike should be level when checking, not leaning like resting on the side stand. Too much oil can cause some clutch drag also.

It is rare that the oil level would go down unless it is leaking out somewhere. Do you see any puddle of oil under the bike?

I suspect the water pump seal is leaking and needs to be replaced. It is not a hard job to do but do need to pry out the old one so it might be a good idea to have someone else with experience help you.

**

You also mention that the bike is hard to kick. The very short kick lever on trials bikes makes then hard to kick so it is usually best to take the bike out of gear when kicking. Not a bad idea anyway if you have a sticking clutch so the bike does not take off when it starts. Even in neutral I always make sure to hold the clutch in and the front brake on when kicking.

Hi thats_a_five, thanks again. I haven't run the bike today, that pic is of the bike cold. She has had 4 oil changes in the last week. Thanks for the advice about the oil level, and no to the puddle underneath the bike, it is weird how it has gone down. As for the kicking, it was down to technique. If I bend my other leg and use my bodyweight it's a lot easier ta

thanks jfc